Why can some people tell the difference and some cannot?

[idc]

Debates rage long and hard as to what extent if any the various component parts of hifi/av can and do sound different. With speakers there is a huge agreement that different speakers ound different and that is clear. With digital cables there is little agreement and two clear camps of they do and they do not and another camp of not sure, I have not tried it yet, but.......

I have had a lot of time to pursue and develop this hifi hobby over the past year. I have been off work a lot and have been lucky and gained from others generosity in being to upgrade my hifi during that time. I have listened to literally 1000s of hours of music, probably every month since last April.

During that time it has become easier to spot the differences between elements of the hifi chain, including ones that before I thought I could not. The change has been gradual and it finally came to light with getting a new laptop and setting up itunes, Spotify and all my music files from the hard drive again. I have music in loads of different bit rates and file formats. I have since June listened to primarily Spotify at 128 and then 320 kbps. Now going back to my other files, I find it far easier to spot the difference.

What hifi get criticised a lot for finding differences in racks, digital cables etc where others say that cannot be. I wonder, if you listen to music and from lots of different setups, that with practice, the differences become easier to spot. So those who cannot hear a difference or doubt it, have they listened to enough music and kit to be sure?

 

[AL13N]

Interesting point. I'd say the same applies to many fields, not just music playback. Hence casual customers in said product/area are much easier to satisfy than dedicated (grumpy

) ones.

BTW, thanks for the updated pics, very cool.

 

[Craig M.]

i think it does get easier to tell differences with practice. a well matched system helps too.

 

[Clare Newsome]

Persistence/longer-term listening/watching helps, too - what can seem instantly appealing may reveal flaws with time/different material.

 

[Anonymous]

of course this argument only works if there really is a difference

what happens if there isnt

 

[Clare Newsome]

If there isn't a difference, that's fine - you can choose your product based on other criteria apart from performance, such as price, size or style

 

[Anonymous]

In time, and with kit changes and experience, you learn what to look (listen) for. It's like wine. Over the years my taste has become expensive, a taste that ten years ago couldn't understand the fuss with some wine.

 

[Craig M.]

then you don't hear one.

unless you're trying to insinuate that people hear differences that aren't there, in which case, wow - you're very controversial.

 

[idc]

True, but often in hifi we are talking about marginal differences and the phrase 'night and day' is worthless and exaggerated.

For example, I am pretty sure I can tell the difference between white and red and rose wine, but beyond that I doubt it. But if I went on a wine forum and announced I have no experience of wine, have hardly drunk any and it all tastes the same, you can imaging the likely reaction. But after many years of wine drinking and trying lots of different grapes etc, as well as being blissfully drunk, I would be able to pick out differences that to a beginner would not be so clear.

If there is not a difference, then you will not spot any difference. That test I have seen where a group were given three 'different' lagers to try. They made out differences and looked embarrassed when they told it was all the same stuff. A more practiced lager drinker may not be so easily foolded.

 

[Anonymous]

clare sorry i wasnt being clear

i was referring to idcs argument which presumes differences in order to work

idc thought i read somewhere that you said couldnt hear differences between certain types of cables so do i assume if you listen to them more you think will be able to

 

[Alec]

So if there isnt a difference you wont hear one unless, well, you do...? Figures

Agree re "night and day" tho, certainly.

 

[idc]

one off:

i was referring to idcs argument which presumes differences in order to work

idc thought i read somewhere that you said couldnt hear differences between certain types of cables so do i assume if you listen to them more you think will be able to

I am presuming differences, particularly with the likes of digital cables. I used to say happily that I could not tell the difference between 320kbps and lossless music files, now I find it much easier. I also used to say (and still do at the moment) that I have heard various USB cables and there was not difference between them. Now I am not sure of that and I will have a comparison test to see if that is still the case.

My arguement summarised is 'the more you listen and learn about hifi, the easier it becomes to hear differences'.

 

[Anonymous]

idc:

My arguement summarised is 'the more you listen and learn about hifi, the easier it becomes to hear differences'.

but the harder it is to admit to similarities

i wouldnt be bothered about doing a comparison test in the end it doesnt really matter as long as your enjoying your swedish prog rock

my guess is the argument will be going on 5 years from now without a resolution in sight

 

[margetti]

Good post idc. Another good analogy is photography (something I know very little about, I hasten to add). I did quite a lot of research last year when choosing a £250-300 digital camera, and when it came to picture quality I myself couldn't see a lot of difference between one model and the next - generally speaking. But the more I researched, the more I got to understand, and gradually I did notice some of the differences I had been reading about.

Of course, a digital camera is all about 0's and 1's surely, so how there can be a difference...

 

[Anonymous]

margetti:
Good post idc. Another good analogy is photography (something I know very little about, I hasten to add). I did quite a lot of research last year when choosing a £250-300 digital camera, and when it came to picture quality I myself couldn't see a lot of difference between one model and the next - generally speaking. But the more I researched, the more I got to understand, and gradually I did notice some of the differences I had been reading about.

Of course, a digital camera is all about 0's and 1's surely, so how there can be a difference...

far more variables here of course not least of which is the characteristics of the lens

 

[margetti]

one off:margetti:
Of course, a digital camera is all about 0's and 1's surely, so how there can be a difference...

far more variables here of course not least of which is the characteristics of the lens

Yes, of course - fully appreciate that. Couldn't resist the (perhaps tenuous) opportunity to use a

smiley

 

[chebby]

Photography is a creative activity (once you move beyond the mere 'recording' of things like birthdays/holidays etc.) and 95 percent of the endeavour is your vision and your ability to communicate that in your photographs.

As someone who has used everything from Leica M series lenses and Rollei/Zeiss 6x6 cameras to mass market digital point 'n shoots, I can say with some certainty that brands/prices/pixel counts/features matters only a little bit compared to the photographer's creative and communicative abilities.

Hifi is a totally passive activity where you simply consume the skill of others in terms of both music and the equipment.

There is no parallel.

 

[idc]

one off:idc:

My arguement summarised is 'the more you listen and learn about hifi, the easier it becomes to hear differences'.

but the harder it is to admit to similarities

That could well be true and it is a good point. However, it can be reversed and applied to those who do not have the practice and/or do not want to admit to the fact that just because they cant hear something does not mean it does not exist.

one off:.....i wouldnt be bothered about doing a comparison test in the end it doesnt really matter as long as your enjoying your swedish prog rock

I am listening to Norwegian Prog at the moment. When I first started to listen to the Scandinavian music scene I could not tell the difference between bands let alone countries. Now, after listening to loads, I can pick out the bands and have a good stab at telling you whether they come from Norway, Sweden or Finland. I can add into that list the very Germanic sound of their prog bands. I struggle a bit between Dutch and German as they have a similar style when it comes to the more anthemic, symphonic prog. One of the Polish bands I like, SSB sound Germanic and another, Riverside sound as if they are from the USA. It all comes with paractice and experience.

But all night club dance music sounds the same to me.

 

[Anonymous]

Well for starters the camera is in charge of the conversion process. - Home audio equipment is not in as much as you already buy the analogue or digital data pre-recorded onto media or downloaded from t'internet.

Much of what is written about a camera is not applicable for comparison with HiFi. In a camera you are seeking to project an image onto a CCD or CMOS device. In order to do this you need a lens (or more correctly an assembly of lenses). These suffer from distortion and chromatic abboration to a greater or lesser extent and this effects what the tranceiver interprits into the 0's ans 1's

Now once you have the 0's and 1's your PC display will gave an influence on how they look when you view them as will your printer. Again because you are converting digital data back into something that makes sense to a human eye.

So your camera and PC and printer control the A to D and the D to A process. Your home audio only controls the D to A process.

 

[Anonymous]

I wish I could go back to blissful ignorance.

I suppose its like the eskimo's. They have X number of words for different types of snow. WHAT? X number of words for different types of snow? But snow is snow? Surely!

2 years ago, I was into my decks and was loving the music. Music was music. I had 4 kinds of music. Good, bad, stuff I like and stuff I didn't.

Now, I'm comparing different bits of wire, moving my speakers an inch this way or that way. Putting ball bearings under my cd player.

The missus thinks I'm mad. I'm slowly beginning to agree with her. BUT I CAN HEAR THE DIFFERENCE. And I can't go back.I have to accept that forever more I will not be happy with listening to music on an ordinary (Curry's) sound system. There is too much potential to make music sound more engaging and real.

One wire makes a small difference but change the wires, stands, supports, room ect and a whole host of other criteria and the little changes make a whole.

My friends think I'm mad. I have 2 friends who appreciate the effort that I go to. The missus nods and um's and ah's in sympathy but I don't care. Sorbothane pads, mains conditioners, rugs on the floor, bicycle inner tubes, bits of wire from the US, granite plinths, blu tac, tubes, silver plated power plugs, the speakers HAVE to go there, ect, ect. I LIKE IT!!!

My music NEVER sounded so good!!!!

There, its out. I got it off my chest. Thanks!!!

 

[margetti]

chebby:
Photography is a creative activity (once you move beyond the mere 'recording' of things like birthdays/holidays etc.) and 95 percent of the endeavour is your vision and your ability to communicate that in your photographs.

As someone who has used everything from Leica M series lenses and Rollei/Zeiss 6x6 cameras to mass market digital point 'n shoots, I can say with some certainty that brands/prices/pixel counts/features matters only a little bit compared to the photographer's creative and communicative abilities.

Hifi is a totally passive activity where you simply consume the skill of others in terms of both music and the equipment.

There is no parallel.

That wasn't the point I was trying to make. I'll get my hat on the way out...

 

[Anonymous]

leenorris78:
I wish I could go back to blissful ignorance.

I suppose its like the eskimo's. They have X number of words for different types of snow. WHAT? X number of words for different types of snow? But snow is snow? Surely!

2 years ago, I was into my decks and was loving the music. Music was music. I had 4 kinds of music. Good, bad, stuff I like and stuff I didn't.

Now, I'm comparing different bits of wire, moving my speakers an inch this way or that way. Putting ball bearings under my cd player.

The missus thinks I'm mad. I'm slowly beginning to agree with her. BUT I CAN HEAR THE DIFFERENCE. And I can't go back.I have to accept that forever more I will not be happy with listening to music on an ordinary (Curry's) sound system. There is too much potential to make music sound more engaging and real.

One wire makes a small difference but change the wires, stands, supports, room ect and a whole host of other criteria and the little changes make a whole.

My friends think I'm mad. I have 2 friends who appreciate the effort that I go to. The missus nods and um's and ah's in sympathy but I don't care. Sorbothane pads, mains conditioners, rugs on the floor, bicycle inner tubes, bits of wire from the US, granite plinths, blu tac, tubes, silver plated power plugs, the speakers HAVE to go there, ect, ect. I LIKE IT!!!

There, its out. I got it off my chest. Thanks!!!
dont worry leenorris you go full circle and realise its the amp cd player speakers and above all the music that counts the rest doesnt really matter

 

[Anonymous]

I know you say it doesn't matter but it does.

I always swap in a new tweek for about a month and then go back to the previous setup to make a decision weither the tweak is an improvement or not. Of course, it is the music that matters. Its just that a swap in interconnect or lead or a change in X makes a difference, for better or worse, that brings me closer to the music.

I have spent a great deal of time listening to live gigs. Sometimes I arrive home thinking that the gig was amazing. Other times, I criticize the musicians. Sometimes i criticize the soundsystem. With each tweak, I feel I am trying to get closer to what the engineer/artist heard and getting closer to why the artist made the music that they did.

At the moment, I envy others who are still in ignorant bliss but also feel sorry that they can't hear the difference.

 

[Anonymous]

Or maybe its the case that I have been brainwashed? mmmmmh, yes, its a possibility.

 

[ElectroMan]

leenorris78:
I suppose its like the eskimo's. They have X number of words for different types of snow. WHAT? X number of words for different types of snow? But snow is snow? Surely!

Totally off topic, but isn't that supposed to be a myth, created by an explorer or journalist?

I did read that we have far more words for rain than eskimos do for snow!