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CES Hands On - Samsung HW-Q990F review
what also doesnt make sense just as much is the tv i want is £999 sony kd55x8509. the 65" is double the price at £2000!
expat_mike
Well-known member
I think that there is always a "chicken or egg" scenario with such products.
It costs a lot of money to set up a tv panel production line.
The larger the panel size, the greater the risk of there being some dead pixels, or other fault. This risk stays high until enough production experience has been accumulated, to learn how to make the panels with no/few dead pixels. The result is that the unit production costs are high (and consequently so is the panel selling price), and gradually decrease until enough panels have been produced, so that the panel quality reaches steady state.
The end result is that the early TV prices are high, and gradually decrease - you are seeing this effect with OLED panels at the moment.
The "chicken or egg" scenario relates to the fact that whilst the TV price is very high, this reduces the number of customers - but to increase the number of customers (leading to enough production experience to enable prices to be reduced), you need the prices to be already low enough to be considered affordable.
It costs a lot of money to set up a tv panel production line.
The larger the panel size, the greater the risk of there being some dead pixels, or other fault. This risk stays high until enough production experience has been accumulated, to learn how to make the panels with no/few dead pixels. The result is that the unit production costs are high (and consequently so is the panel selling price), and gradually decrease until enough panels have been produced, so that the panel quality reaches steady state.
The end result is that the early TV prices are high, and gradually decrease - you are seeing this effect with OLED panels at the moment.
The "chicken or egg" scenario relates to the fact that whilst the TV price is very high, this reduces the number of customers - but to increase the number of customers (leading to enough production experience to enable prices to be reduced), you need the prices to be already low enough to be considered affordable.
Son_of_SJ
Well-known member
nugget2014 said:
No, it's not double the price of the 55". http://www.richersounds.com/product/tv---all/sony/bravia-kd65x8509c/sony-kd65x8509cbu
I am still trying to figure out the relative value of a (very) large 4K TV vs. a 4K projector and screen.
As far as I know, at the moment, the largest commerically available 4K TVs are the 85-inchers from Panasonic. Maybe other brands as well, I don't know. Above that and you're obliged to go for a projector and screen. In the US, the 85-inch Panasonics sell for about $10,000.
An entry level Sony 350ES 4K projector will cost $8,000, and you can add another $1,000 for a decent screen on top of that. So the entry point for a 4K projector setup, assuming you have a room you can dedicated to the project (like I do, fortunately) is $9,000.
The bulb life on the projectors is supposed to be 6,000 hours, but from my experiences with DLP TVs (all be it a decade ago now) is that the bulb life will be considerably shorter than that, especially if the "little cherubs" start using the thing for video games or if the projector is switched on and off frequently. So for argument's sake I'm going to say the projector will need a new bulb every year. Twice a year is just as likely. A new bulb is probably going to cost in the order of $100. And I'm assuming I can swap bulbs myself, not call in someone to do it for me.
So over a lifetime of, say, 10 years, the TV and the projector will cost the same to buy. Electricity I won't consider.
Sure, TV and projector prices are coming down, especially at the 4K level. As other manufacturers start producing genuine 4K projectors, that will help, but for 85 inches and under, for 4K at least, I think the TVs still win out slightly due to practicality and, perhaps, slightly better picture quality.
It's a tough one.
Sadly, or fortunately, take your pick, we won't be buying either until well into next year, when 100+ inch TVs will probably be available and where 4K projector prices will probably drop 20 to 25%, making the decision even harder.
And by then, of course, the manufacturers will be trying to sell us 4D TVs with Atmos, curved screens will go back to curving outwards (like they did on CRTs) and it'll all be made obsolete by some sort of "Star Wars" gizmo that projects a five-D hologram from the middle of your coffee table....
As far as I know, at the moment, the largest commerically available 4K TVs are the 85-inchers from Panasonic. Maybe other brands as well, I don't know. Above that and you're obliged to go for a projector and screen. In the US, the 85-inch Panasonics sell for about $10,000.
An entry level Sony 350ES 4K projector will cost $8,000, and you can add another $1,000 for a decent screen on top of that. So the entry point for a 4K projector setup, assuming you have a room you can dedicated to the project (like I do, fortunately) is $9,000.
The bulb life on the projectors is supposed to be 6,000 hours, but from my experiences with DLP TVs (all be it a decade ago now) is that the bulb life will be considerably shorter than that, especially if the "little cherubs" start using the thing for video games or if the projector is switched on and off frequently. So for argument's sake I'm going to say the projector will need a new bulb every year. Twice a year is just as likely. A new bulb is probably going to cost in the order of $100. And I'm assuming I can swap bulbs myself, not call in someone to do it for me.
So over a lifetime of, say, 10 years, the TV and the projector will cost the same to buy. Electricity I won't consider.
Sure, TV and projector prices are coming down, especially at the 4K level. As other manufacturers start producing genuine 4K projectors, that will help, but for 85 inches and under, for 4K at least, I think the TVs still win out slightly due to practicality and, perhaps, slightly better picture quality.
It's a tough one.
Sadly, or fortunately, take your pick, we won't be buying either until well into next year, when 100+ inch TVs will probably be available and where 4K projector prices will probably drop 20 to 25%, making the decision even harder.
And by then, of course, the manufacturers will be trying to sell us 4D TVs with Atmos, curved screens will go back to curving outwards (like they did on CRTs) and it'll all be made obsolete by some sort of "Star Wars" gizmo that projects a five-D hologram from the middle of your coffee table....
chebby
Well-known member
expat_mike said:
I don't think there's any relationship between panel size and production yield.
There's no reason why a larger panel would be more prone to dead pixels than a smaller panel. I'm happy to be corrected if anyone has access to information I'm unaware of.
Manufacturers charge such a premium for the very largest screen sizes because there's a small but existent customer base for such products.
Some of these customers are extremely rich; others behave like good little consumers and debt slaves by maxing out on credit, in the belief their friends will feel envious.
Well,
A TV should last about ten years, but the industry seems intent on trying to make us buy a new one every two, sorry, one year.
Eventually people will wise up, get ticked off (putting it politely) and refuse to "upgrade" yet again. 3D TV? Flop. Curved TVs? If not flopped, then not exactly rushing out of the shops. 4K TV? Only because prices have dropped to those of 1080p TVs a couple of years ago.
AHAH! I told you first, remember!
2017: Multi-Axis Curved TVs.Currently curved TVs only curve in one plane. That is, they're like a section cut out of the side of a beer can. Next year, they'll be curved in TWO planes, like a section cut out of a football, so that not only do you have to be in the right spot left to right, but also up to down, to get the best seat in the house. WHF journos will be discussing whether or not the curves should be spherical or parabolic or ....
Then, in 2018, we'll get TVs you can roll up and fix to any wall you want with drawing pins (and Russ What's-his-name will be selling "acoutstically perfect drawing pins out of 6N unobtainium alloy").
And in 2019 there'll be a retro movement to bring back CRTs....
A TV should last about ten years, but the industry seems intent on trying to make us buy a new one every two, sorry, one year.
Eventually people will wise up, get ticked off (putting it politely) and refuse to "upgrade" yet again. 3D TV? Flop. Curved TVs? If not flopped, then not exactly rushing out of the shops. 4K TV? Only because prices have dropped to those of 1080p TVs a couple of years ago.
AHAH! I told you first, remember!
2017: Multi-Axis Curved TVs.Currently curved TVs only curve in one plane. That is, they're like a section cut out of the side of a beer can. Next year, they'll be curved in TWO planes, like a section cut out of a football, so that not only do you have to be in the right spot left to right, but also up to down, to get the best seat in the house. WHF journos will be discussing whether or not the curves should be spherical or parabolic or ....
Then, in 2018, we'll get TVs you can roll up and fix to any wall you want with drawing pins (and Russ What's-his-name will be selling "acoutstically perfect drawing pins out of 6N unobtainium alloy").
And in 2019 there'll be a retro movement to bring back CRTs....
Series1boy
Well-known member
Benedict_Arnold said:
Thanks for furnishing us with this information (which was undoubdtedly germane to the conversation). Is it a really big room?
Big enough, about 15 feet x 25.
My point is, for the average living room, I don't think a bloody great projector screen is going to go down well with the memsahib...
But then, a 75 inch TV probably wouldn't either, and I'm discounting, say, converting a garage or building an extension to the home from the calculations.
My point is, for the average living room, I don't think a bloody great projector screen is going to go down well with the memsahib...
But then, a 75 inch TV probably wouldn't either, and I'm discounting, say, converting a garage or building an extension to the home from the calculations.
Series1boy
Well-known member
Son_of_SJ
Well-known member
I don't understand why any sensible person would want to go to PCWorld when you can buy it for £200 cheaper at Richer Sounds, and with a five-year guarantee, but hey.
Son_of_SJ said:
it's the same price. forget what i said before, didnt come across right with what i meant
Son_of_SJ
Well-known member
Basically the production run is small. So where they might make at 200,000 55'' tv at time for example they might only make 20,000 of 75-85'' versions. So thats makes the materials more expensive to buy as there not buying so much of it. It has a cascade effect on production The glass being the most expensive part of the unit to handle and produce.....
Then you have to take shipping and packing into account. Basically it boosts the price as they my only need one container for example for a bunch of 55'' sets where as they will need double-tripple that for 70'' plus sets. This makes curved screens more expensive also as there shipping more air so more containers needed....
sorry for my bad spelling and grammer in advance. But hopfully you will get the idea.
Then you have to take shipping and packing into account. Basically it boosts the price as they my only need one container for example for a bunch of 55'' sets where as they will need double-tripple that for 70'' plus sets. This makes curved screens more expensive also as there shipping more air so more containers needed....
sorry for my bad spelling and grammer in advance. But hopfully you will get the idea.
Thanks for the input, your spelling and grammar is fine, don't worry about that.millennia_one said:
Paul.
Well-known member
Not sure about OLED, but LCD was always made on a mother glass, one big chunk cut in to pieces like a tray of brownies. The bigger the chunk you cut it in too, the less chunks you get per cycle. The bigger units are therefor higher risk as the loses are greater.
Dont forget that just because a tv is only 10" bigger, it doesn't mean it's not much bigger. In terms of area it's significantly larger. A 75" sounds like it should be 15% bigger than a 65", but in terms of screen area it's actually 25% bigger. A 65" is 28% bigger than a 55".
Dont forget that just because a tv is only 10" bigger, it doesn't mean it's not much bigger. In terms of area it's significantly larger. A 75" sounds like it should be 15% bigger than a 65", but in terms of screen area it's actually 25% bigger. A 65" is 28% bigger than a 55".
If you do the sums (as I have just done, it's a slow week at work), you'll find that three 48-inch TVs stood on their short sides (i.e. long sides vertical) give you roughly the same screen area as one 85 inch TV the correct (long side horizontal) way up.
So you would think if it were based on material costs alone (which it isn't) an 85-inch TV would cost the same as three 48-inchers.
However, a 48 inch TV costs, what, about $1000 here in the US, compared with ten times that for an 85 inch TV (Panasonic, for example.
However, as other posters have stated, manufacturing quantities of scale, shipping costs, rejection rates, even the cost of shelf space in the shop that sells them, etc. mean that at about the 65-inch size and above, prices start to rise exponentially as demand drops off, also, probably, exponentially. Added to that, there's the "exclusivity premium", where manufacturers, retailers, and everyone else in between artificially hike their prices anyway. Think parallels with the fashion industry.
So you would think if it were based on material costs alone (which it isn't) an 85-inch TV would cost the same as three 48-inchers.
However, a 48 inch TV costs, what, about $1000 here in the US, compared with ten times that for an 85 inch TV (Panasonic, for example.
However, as other posters have stated, manufacturing quantities of scale, shipping costs, rejection rates, even the cost of shelf space in the shop that sells them, etc. mean that at about the 65-inch size and above, prices start to rise exponentially as demand drops off, also, probably, exponentially. Added to that, there's the "exclusivity premium", where manufacturers, retailers, and everyone else in between artificially hike their prices anyway. Think parallels with the fashion industry.
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