Which ethernet cable?

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Gray

Well-known member
It just seems to very prevalent on this and similar threads.
There will always be a major difference of opinion on cables and wonder accessories - on all forums.
Try to look at at from both sides.
Those that claim to have heard a difference by changing a mains fuse....you could say that suggesting to them that they've imagined the difference is belittling them.
To non- believers, such a claim is an insult to the intelligence of normal people - that can't go unchallenged.
 
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DiggyGun

Well-known member
Mar 2, 2021
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That’s the problem. I’m not saying that. There will always be two camps , but there doesn’t need to be challenges from a non-believer. each person has their own opinion and it is not up to someone to be-little it or try and tell them they wrong, for whatever reason.

Who cares, read their opinion, might be different from yours, but so what, move on and enjoy your life and music. Don’t try and think that your opinion is better.

I don’t care if people believe the earth is round or flat, it is their opinion and they are happy, why would I try and change their opinion. It’s only a H-Fi forum after all…..
 

Gray

Well-known member
That’s the problem. I’m not saying that. There will always be two camps , but there doesn’t need to be challenges from a non-believer. each person has their own opinion and it is not up to someone to be-little it or try and tell them they wrong, for whatever reason.

Who cares, read their opinion, might be different from yours, but so what, move on and enjoy your life and music. Don’t try and think that your opinion is better.

I don’t care if people believe the earth is round or flat, it is their opinion and they are happy, why would I try and change their opinion. It’s only a H-Fi forum after all…..
Fully get where you're coming from - live and let live and all that 👍
People are free to believe what they like.
Most forum members are obviously not going to benefit from a debate.

However, this forum (in particular) has a high proportion of 'Newbies' that come here for advice.
People have a right to hear both sides of the debate.
By your logic someone here could claim for certain that his expensive audiophile mains fuse was an excellent investment.
Everyone else should either agree or remain silent? For the sake of harmony.
They could do that - but the poor newbie would be much the worse for it.
I don't think of it in terms of superiors versus victims....both sides must be heard.
 
No arguing with Gray's last post - though being an established member didn't tend to stop the sort of thing that DiggyGun is referring to.

I just count our blessings that those who were rudest when the subject cropped up ( a small number who in my experience were largely from the non- camp) seem largely absent!
 
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Gray

Well-known member
No arguing with Gray's last post - though being an established member didn't tend to stop the sort of thing that DiggyGun is referring to.

I just count our blessings that those who were rudest when the subject cropped up ( a small number who in my experience were largely from the non- camp) seem largely absent!
Some can be a bit blunt, but that often amuses me.
Never any need for rudeness or personal insults.
 

DiggyGun

Well-known member
Mar 2, 2021
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Fully get where you're coming from - live and let live and all that 👍
People are free to believe what they like.
Most forum members are obviously not going to benefit from a debate.

However, this forum (in particular) has a high proportion of 'Newbies' that come here for advice.
People have a right to hear both sides of the debate.
By your logic someone here could claim for certain that his expensive audiophile mains fuse was an excellent investment.
Everyone else should either agree or remain silent? For the sake of harmony.
They could do that - but the poor newbie would be much the worse for it.
I don't think of it in terms of superiors versus victims....both sides must be heard.
Agreed, that both sides of the debate need to be heard. But this can be done with both sides putting their opinions, based on their individual experience and respecting other peoples opinions. However, there is then no need for the “non-believers“ to start with comments like, “Snake oil”, ‘did you do the test blind?”, “expectation bias”.

I’m sure that people can make up their own mind, based on the comments on the thread, without the insinuations coming through thick and fast, which could be off-putting for some of the newer members.

After all, a Forum should be helpful at the end of the day…
 

podknocker

Well-known member
Feb 5, 2021
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We should care, if people think the Earth is flat, because we can prove it isn't. The flat Earthers are wrong, so their opinion can be dismissed, as nonsense. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but you can't have your own facts. If you don't understand a fact, then don't criticise, or belittle others, if they do understand that fact and can explain it, using repeatable measurements and scientific consensus. It's the same with cabling. There is zero technical reason, an expensive LAN cable, carrying digital data, can sound better than a cheaper one. The science behind this, confirms they cannot sound better. There are many factors influencing sound quality. Firstly, the temperature and humidity of the listening room. Also, human hearing is better at night. Humans need to depend on hearing, not sight, when it's dark, as there is less light available to sense threats etc. The acuity of hearing is much better, later at night. Your mood also changes the way you perceive sounds and the amount of RFI and noise in the surroundings, does influence sound quality. There are many views on this forum, but some views are based on provable facts and others are based on other factors, one of them being a need to argue about things, with little or no understanding of physics, acoustics and biological factors. If you think it sounds better, then well done, but there are many people that don't think expensive LAN cables sound better, because firstly, they can't and secondly, most people don't fall for the hype and bulls*it that comes with expensive cable marketing.
 
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DiggyGun

Well-known member
Mar 2, 2021
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Point in question. Very patronising, without asking what my opinion is, which hasn’t been given.

Assumption at its highest degree.

No wonder new members don’t like asking questions.
 
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That post does turn a discussion about how cable threads develop into going over the same old ground.

I wholeheartedly agree with the statement that people are not entitled to their own facts, but it's the desire to 'win' the debate that makes these things toxic.

So let's stick to how cable discussions have been and how this might affect traffic, rather than making it another cable debate, maybe?
 

WayneKerr

Well-known member
Jan 21, 2022
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No arguing with Gray's last post - though being an established member didn't tend to stop the sort of thing that DiggyGun is referring to.

I just count our blessings that those who were rudest when the subject cropped up ( a small number who in my experience were largely from the non- camp) seem largely absent!
Of course you would say that as you are in the believers camp :)
 
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Of course you would say that as you are in the believers camp :)
I think I am somewhere in between, in that my experience is that cable can somtimes (and for reasons that are quite beyond me) make a difference, rather than cables necessarily do - if that makes sense. Might sound like semantics or splitting hairs, but it's the closest I can get to a concise description of my views.

In most instances I haven't heard any difference, but in a couple they were clear. It doesn't make any logical sense to me, but the only ears I need to trust and please are my own!
 

DiggyGun

Well-known member
Mar 2, 2021
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Of course you would say that as you are in the believers camp :)
Pure arrogance. You have no idea what camp I’m in.

The post is in relation to the arrogant attitude of some of the members.

A perfect example of which you have just adequately demonstrated.
 
Pure arrogance. You have no idea what camp I’m in.

The post is in relation to the arrogant attitude of some of the members.

A perfect example of which you have just adequately demonstrated.
He's talking to me (you'll see he's quoting one of my posts), and I take no offence - neither should you.

(I also interpret his smiley as some degree of acknowledgement that he may well be able to hazard a guess at which members I refer to!)
 

WayneKerr

Well-known member
Jan 21, 2022
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Pure arrogance. You have no idea what camp I’m in.

The post is in relation to the arrogant attitude of some of the members.

A perfect example of which you have just adequately demonstrated.
o_O Oh come on man, it's only a forum, lighten up! I really don't care what camp you're in - life's too short...
 
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abacus

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Sep 24, 2008
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Everybody is entitled to their own opinion (No sensible person is going to argue with that) however the problems start when people start claiming their opinion is fact without providing verifiable evidence. (Usually claiming that other people’s ears or systems are not good enough)
There are scientific methods in place to test any claim (The level matched double blind test is one) that remove any variables that may affect the result, thus giving verifiable evidence of the claim. (The fact that not one person or manufacture as ever provided this verifiable evidence should automatically raise the red flags, and thus their claims should be taken with a pinch of salt)
In the end, if you believe it makes a difference, then that is all that matters, so just enjoy.

Bill
 

DiggyGun

Well-known member
Mar 2, 2021
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Forums should be fun, that is correct.

However, if someone has a question and they are new here, they should be able to ask that question freely.

What they should not get is a load of people telling them why they’re wrong.

If they prefer B and someone else doesn’t like B because of whatever, so what. Make your point without rudeness, sarcasm or arrogance.
 
Forums should be fun, that is correct.

However, if someone has a question and they are new here, they should be able to ask that question freely.

What they should not get is a load of people telling them why they’re wrong.

If they prefer B and someone else doesn’t like B because of whatever, so what. Make your point without rudeness, sarcasm or arrogance.
I think the best bet is for you to participate here and see how you get on - there's a report function for anything that you feel is abusive or which breaches forum rules - these are listed at the top of each sub-forum as a sticky.

Despite the fractiousness that can go with certain topics, this isn't a bad place to spend time.
 

ThisIsJimmy

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2020
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First things first. Apologies. If I offend people with what I post or scare people away from posting, i'm deeply sorry. I have never been the best communicator, and I tend to get rather emotive with my responses because I care, instead of logically explaining my arguments which would be much better. I have been keeping myself away from here because I always end up doing a bad job of expressing what I want to convey and inadvertently upset or put people off.

Working in IT my response was an emotive response in this thread and didn't really explain anything.

1) The Switch review.

Most Network standards are defined by the "Institue of Electrical and Electronic Engineers". These make their way down into Regional Standards as highlighted in the link i sent previously. "TIA" (Telecommunications Industry Association) for America, "CENELEC" (European Committee for Electrotechnical Standardisation) for Europe and "ISO" (International Organisation for Standardization) for the rest of the world. Although these exist as guidelines, these guidelines can often also be enshrined in law. As switch communication has to use the same protocols and standards to talk to each other, the minimum standards of hardware also has to comply by is also the same, whether the device sits in a datacentre that requires you to wear ear defenders to enter, or in your own home.

The way all switches communicate with each other and networks handle data is also important. Rather than me try to explain badly why this is relevant, see the below:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-ai8JzhHuY


Understanding the basic concept now of how computers talk to each other see the below on the two main protocols TCP & UDP

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA9ZJdqzOoU


Most Audio Visual applications these days (unless it's a live stream though more and more of these now are buffered TCP streams) will use TCP over UDP. Using TCP, it's technically impossible to lose the original data source or for it to be different at the destination.

What If their is any EM induced harmonics or noise generated that interferes with a transmission? The device stops working (the classic example is your router next to christmas lights) or it degrades it's throughput. This would be rather disasterous for a UDP live stream, but would reduce throughput on a TCP stream but the original data would be intact unless the signal is drowned out. This is not something an AV switch would fix. If their is a bad cable or SFP failure. then what? Errors are generated on switch port interfaces which will remove a link or a switch if necessary from service, re-route traffic and send out alerts to Technicians and administrators for them to fix a fault in the datacentre/ISP world. For us at home, we would just replace the cable.

For an AV switch to therefore be magnitudes better than a convential switch should not be possible as they all use the same standards. Unless such a manufacturer can produce data metrics in a replicatable test environment to prove otherwise, please please please don't be foold and save yourselves the money, but ultimately it's up to you.

2) Cabling

Again Ethernet cabling is again based on standards defined by the IEEE. As laid out in the link I posted previously, CAT7 cabling is designed for a use case in datacentres handling huge quantities of data that far exceeds the requirements of a typical home user. If their is a cost difference, most people at home should not need to go higher than CAT 6 or CAT6A based on bandwitdth and throughput.

The bit that will be of more interest to the AV community is the different types of the same category of cable, and depending on the location of your kit will benefit from a U/FTP (Unshielded Foiled Twisted Pair) or S/FTP (Shielded Foiled Twisted Pair) over standard UTP (Unshielded Twisted Pair) cabling as it adds layers of protection to cabling to protect it against EM and Harmonic Interference).

Do I believe that Ethernet Cabling makes a difference? Category wise, CAT 6 or 6A is the sweet spot, any higher typically is a considerable cost jump and not justifiabe based on my home use case. I do purchase U/FTP or S/FTP cables from a reputable cabing manufacturer such as Excel, but not Audio Visual Cabling, because their are no percievable benefits from doing so for a significant jump in £s.

Have I purchase and Do I believe their is a place for AV cabling manufacturers? Yes. Through my own experiences I have found that conventional USB cables (even when swapped) were creating Jitter to my DAC), and Also more recently I have also changed my basic XLR cables which corrected a long standing issue with channel imbalance between my DAC and AMP and totally transformed the sound. Would I spend £100s or £1000s. no.

Again, these are my opinions. Make of them what you will. I hope i've done a better job of trying to explain myself this time...
 

Gray

Well-known member
I have also changed my basic XLR cables which corrected a long standing issue with channel imbalance between my DAC and AMP and totally transformed the sound.
No doubt the original XLRs were made with identical cable on both the left and right channels Jimmy.
So how could (working) cables have been the cause of any imbalance?
 

DiggyGun

Well-known member
Mar 2, 2021
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Again, these are my opinions. Make of them what you will. I hope i've done a better job of trying to explain myself this time...
Thank you for the detailed and informative write up, very interesting.

I understand about the standards, having worked in compliance all my life, mainly in the electrical engineering manufacturing arena.

There have been a number of positive reviews of cables and switches from the HI-Fi press, including “What Hi-Fi”, owner of this forum over the years.

However, where they state a positive recommendation for an expensive cable or switch, how did they come to this conclusion.
 

Gray

Well-known member
Thank you for the detailed and informative write up, very interesting.

I understand about the standards, having worked in compliance all my life, mainly in the electrical engineering manufacturing arena.
In which case you may have an answer to the question I put to Jimmy in post #73.
Specifically, how identical (working) cables could be the cause of a channel imbalance.
 

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