Views on adding subwoofer to stereo amp wanted

[AntAxon]

I've noticed when attending live music events the bass is much more defined than with my HiFi system. Although I have Tannoy Precision 6.2's they still lack a bit in bass response. Has anyone got any experience or views on adding a subwoofer to a stereo amplifier to listen to music? Is it a good idea?

If adding a subwoofer is a viable option does anyone have any recommendations, I was thinking of spending between £250 - £500. The Tannoy TS10 or TS12 seem like good options but may be a little too large in dimensions for my room so I would also like to consider other manufacturers.

Thank you for any advice as I have absolutely no experience of subwoofers.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Check out the bk Gemini mk2 they're meant to be a very musical sub with good features for the money.

 

[CnoEvil]

As in all things Hifi, there are those that think it's the way to go and those that don't like the effect.

If you go the Sub route, IMO it can be a good idea, provided the Sub is good enough and the integration with the speakers is done subtly and well...otherwise you end up with an overblown mess.

If you want to give it a go with your budget, I'd be looking at Subs from BK. You could do worse than give them a ring and ask their advice.

http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/sub_woofers.htm

 

[CnoEvil]

If you want to give it a go with your budget, I'd be looking at Subs from BK. You could do worse than give them a ring and ask their advice.

http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/sub_woofers.htm

 

[busb]

I don't own or need one but I know a geezer who owns one even if he doesn't need one! He's gone with REL & believes it has lifted all the sound of his system - not just the bass - go figure, I find the sound of his system dreadfully OTT bass-wise as does his dealer & girlfriend! REL also do Wi Fi rather than needing to trail yet anoth speaker cable around your room.

So to connect, you have 3 choices (with REL anyway): Wi Fi, line in or what this guy has done on the recommendation of his dealer - connect the sub to his speaker terminals (L, R & earth) on his power amp, rather than using the line out. Another dealer suggested the direct rather than line out connection method. I spoke with the owner of the REL earlier - he has lowered the output further from the sub & tendes to vary it according to the music. The main problem of varying its output to suit the song is that your main volume maybe remote controllable but the sub's volume isn't - not even if you have the Wi Fi box. There may be someone who does do remote volume subs. The only further advice is to get a sub to suit your room size.

 

[bluedroog]

You really need to decide on what it is exactly you're trying to achieve, I can't quite tell if its deeper bass, more pronounced bass, better bass or what priority among the three.

I don't think simply adding a sub will be what you're hoping for, I susect you'll whack it up and enjoy the novelty for certain tracks but may find it overall underwhelming. A poor sub or badly set up sub will almost certainly make things far worse.

In terms of which sub should you go that route, as mentioned look no further than BK Elec subs. For the price point nothing comes close. I owed the XXLS400. I'd strongly suggest you looks at something like an antimode or Dirac Mini DSP thingys...Ideally for EQing both speakers and your sub should you get one.

You could also give consideration to your room acoustics and possibly measure it with a mic and laptop to see if you have any issues you can adress, even just mess about with placement and some heavy cushions.

Or put the money together with what you could get for your amp and speakers and go active, bass is typically well controlled. I use Event Opals and the bass is first rate.

 

[TomSawyer]

I have a setup with Tannoy Precision 6.2s and a subwoofer but it's not because I think the 6.2s lack bass it's because it's part of an AV setup. When I play music through the system, it operates as a 2.1 system and it integrates well and sounds fine but I don't think the sub would be needed if wasn't an AV setup. I can switch the sub off and music is still balanced and pleasant.

What is your positioning of the 6.2s like in terms of toeing them into your listening position and relative to walls. One of the characteristics of smaller Tannoy dual concentric (DC) speakers that I find is that if they point straight at you, the treble can be too much. This leads to listening at lower volumes to manage the harshness and as a result lower bass. I find they need to be presented relatively flat if you know what I mean, facing straight front and around 10" - 12" from a rear wall will also help the port. Try experimenting with this before you spend any money because they really are very good speakers in my opinion.

If you still decide to go for a sub, my suggestion is to save a little longer. It seems a shame to put a cheap sub with a pair of £1700 speakers. For just a bit more, an SVS SB2000 works well in my experience and goes properly low which I suspect you would want.

Good luck.

 

[Sorreltiger]

I added a sub to my system a few months ago and I'm very pleased with the results. It is connect from the pre-outs on my Primare amp. Key things are to set the sub to come in at the correct frequency (mine is at 85Hz) and not overdo the volume. I am very happy with the (subtle) effect on a wide range of music from rock and jazz to big orchestral.

 

[andyjm]

I’d like to that everyone that answered my posting that is the great thing about this forum, you get some really useful advice. I’m not really looking for overpowering bass, I would just like it to be a bit more prominent and defined. On Friday I went to see the show Let It Be at the theatre, they obviously played a good selection of Beatles music spanning their career. I was surprised how much more noticeable the bass guitar and drums were compared to my HiFi system and it is this that I am seeking to recreate.

It is difficult to get decent bass in a normal size room. Room effects tend to dominate. In a theatre, the wall reflections are less important, and these days pro audio systems have sophisticated DSP correction facilities to iron out the worst of the remaining problems. It is not at all surprising the bass sounds better at a venue.

Adding a sub is unlikely to help. It is extremely difficult to get a sub to integrate well with an existing system for music. I have personally wasted hours trying to get a sub to integrate with a pair of floorstanders, and even then I am not overly pleased with the result.

My first suggestion would be to try moving your speakers around (and if possible your listening position), that can make a huge difference. You could then try some of the less invasive room treatments, though for LF you really need to look at bass traps or similar. Wall hangings wont make any difference.

If you fancy fiddling around, there are all sorts of room correction DSP software packages available - my sub came with an app to measure and correct room imbalances. REW is a good free to download package as well.

 

[davedotco]

I’d like to that everyone that answered my posting that is the great thing about this forum, you get some really useful advice. I’m not really looking for overpowering bass, I would just like it to be a bit more prominent and defined. On Friday I went to see the show Let It Be at the theatre, they obviously played a good selection of Beatles music spanning their career. I was surprised how much more noticeable the bass guitar and drums were compared to my HiFi system and it is this that I am seeking to recreate. May be it is due to the way the Beatles music was recorded.

I have other recordings like Hotel California on the live Hell Freezes Over album which the bass sounds really good and some Rumer recording which are almost as good. Although I would say most music I have does seem to lack bass.

I suppose if these recordings are not bass light it is not my system. However as total Beatles nut I really wanted to experience their music as it should sound so I thought adding a subwoofer may help. I will try repositioning my speakers to see if that helps but I’m a little restricted as there is not a lot of room for manoeuvre.

It seems from the replies that adding a sub would indeed increase the bass but it probably won’t achieve the sound I’m looking for. What I don’t understand is if some recordings can produce a realistic frequency range why don’t all of them do so?

I think the best thing to do is to try and get a demo with a system with a subwoofer and decide then. I really appreciate all your advice and if I do decide to buy a subwoofer I know which ones to consider now.

The power and punch of drums and bass guitar are often very badly served by hi-fi systems, particularly so if the listener is used to live performances and wants to create some of this effect (within volume limits obviously) in the home.

I believe what you are primarily missing in this instance is power and punch in the two octaves 60-250 hz (what some enthusiasts refer to as 'slam') and this is well above the passband of any proper subwoofer.

The simple, but I suspect unwelcome, answer is that your amplifier and speaker combination does not have the power or transient response to give you what you need. If, like me, you want your music to sound 'live', you have to look at your system in a very different way.

 

[TomSawyer]

At the risk of repeating myself (and of thread self-promotion), try this before anything else as it's free and I think you'll notice a huge difference between listening on and off axis with Tannoy DCs. Once the treble isn't the limiting factor, you can increase the power going to the speaker (assuming your amp is up to it) and get a much better result in the mid-lows.

What is your positioning of the 6.2s like in terms of toeing them into your listening position and relative to walls. One of the characteristics of smaller Tannoy dual concentric (DC) speakers that I find is that if they point straight at you, the treble can be too much. This leads to listening at lower volumes to manage the harshness and as a result lower bass. I find they need to be presented relatively flat if you know what I mean, facing straight front and around 10" - 12" from a rear wall will also help the port. Try experimenting with this before you spend any money because they really are very good speakers in my opinion.

 

[AntAxon]

I’d like to thank everyone that answered my posting that is the great thing about this forum, you get some really useful advice. I’m not really looking for overpowering bass, I would just like it to be a bit more prominent and defined. On Friday I went to see the show Let It Be at the theatre, they obviously played a good selection of Beatles music spanning their career. I was surprised how much more noticeable the bass guitar and drums were compared to my HiFi system and it is this that I am seeking to recreate. May be it is due to the way the Beatles music was recorded.

I have other recordings like Hotel California on the live Hell Freezes Over album which the bass sounds really good and some Rumer recording which are almost as good. Although I would say most music I have does seem to lack bass.

I suppose if these recordings are not bass light it is not my system. However as total Beatles nut I really wanted to experience their music as it should sound so I thought adding a subwoofer may help. I will try repositioning my speakers to see if that helps but I’m a little restricted as there is not a lot of room for manoeuvre.

It seems from the replies that adding a sub would indeed increase the bass but it probably won’t achieve the sound I’m looking for. What I don’t understand is if some recordings can produce a realistic frequency range why don’t all of them do so?

I think the best thing to do is to try and get a demo with a system with a subwoofer and decide then. I really appreciate all your advice and if I do decide to buy a subwoofer I know which ones to consider now.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Q1 - What amp are you using? Is the amp actually the problem, not the speakers? Could you chain in a separate stereo power amp and bi-amp to drive the bass side of things?

Q2 - What CD player or other source unit(s) are you using? Could your source(s) be the problem?

Q3 - What speaker cables are you using? Yes, cables can (not necessarily do) make a difference.

Q4 - Have you experimented with bi-wiring the speakers? If you can't or don't want to bi-wire, have you thought about getting some "jumpers" made up of the same cable as your speaker cable to effectively simulate bi-wiring by linking HF+ to LF+ and HF- to LF- ?

Q5 - If you are bi-wiring / bi-amping, have you tried disconnecting the bass-side cables to check the bass drivers are actually working?

Q6 - The speakers have an "earth" or "ground" terminal. Have you connected this to an earth or a ground, e.g. the same one as provided for your turntable earth or ground wire? (BTW you probably only need one run of modest speaker cable, doorbell wire, even, to ground your speakers). There may be something wierd about the Tannoy crossovers that requires a ground circuit and this could be limiting your bass.

Q7 - Instead of buying a sub, have you considered selling your Tannoys and buying speakers with bigger bass drivers? IMHO you're never going to get huge bass out of speakers with only 6-inch bass drivers. For the price of the Tannoys you could have bought a pair of ProAc Studio 140 Mark 2 or Studio 148. No bass problems there, believe me!

I assume you've played with room placement, moving the speakers forwards and backwards against the back wall, etc.

Finally, if you really want more bass, have you considered, say, a pair of Boston Acoustics floorstanders with built in powered subs? I had a pair ten years ago. No shortage of bass, believe me. Too much, in fact, for my ears.

 

[AntAxon]

My system consists of Marantz PM8005, Marantz SA8005, Tannoy Precision 6.2, Pro-ject 2 Xperience SB DC, the speaker cables are Gale XL315 (quite old) fitted with banana plugs. I've never biwired or grounded the speakers as when I have enquired on this forum the overwhelming opinion was it does not make a significant difference to warrant the expense.

Perhaps I should have considered speakers with bigger bass driver but I looked at the frequency range of the Precision 6.2's and assumed they would be fine. The speakers are working ok I'm sure. Thank you for your alternative speaker suggestions you have given me a lot to consider.

I am going to try adjusting the speaker position but I don't really have many options.

 

[jonathanRD]

I have a BK sub (see signature) that I connected up to my 2 channel amp. It certainly helps with certain music but for the most part I don't switch it on. Now recently I have been demoing new amps and they make a very big difference. As previous posters have suggested, try a more powerful amp to see if that starts to give you what you are after.

 

[AntAxon]

I’ve had some very interesting responses to my question. Some think that a subwoofer will help; but the majority don’t think it will give the sound I’m hoping to achieve. I have now got a good idea of which subwoofers I should look at should I choose that route though.

Many think that the room acoustics and speaker positioning is part of the cause but unfortunately I can’t really change that to any great extent.

It has been suggested that I should consider speakers with bigger bass drivers such as ProAc Studio 140 Mark 2.

Another option is to get a more powerful amplifier to achieve greater “slam”. I assume that this would mean purchasing something like the Hypex Nord Mono Block amps?

It seems that to achieve a “live” sounding system I pretty much need to start again, with new speakers and amp, unfortunately I don’t think I can afford that at the moment but I do appreciate all the help and advice.

 

[CnoEvil]

A couple of points:

- A sub will go lower than all but the most expensive speakers.
- Speakers with bigger bass units "may" give you what you want.
- The quality of the amp plays a big part in giving bass depth, punch, control and scale.
- A sub "can" be a cheaper way of adding more scale and impact to your system ie. Rather than going for a pretty expensive upgrade.
- Whether this will work for you is down to:
a) Quality of Sub (go with a sealed one)
b) Personal preference.
c) Type of music being played eg. Drum and Bass
d) Decent integration

I think going the Sub route has a lot of merits....and thanks to the comments on this thread, you'll would be going in with your eyes open.

Ideally, you should try various options and see what works for you.

 

[nopiano]

Some great feedback above. In your first post you said bass was more defined when live. I think that is really more like "emphasised" rather than defined. Live, amplified, music rarely sounds remotely as good as unamplified (save for electric guitars).

I have listened to lots of grand piano and drum kits, as I have a drummer relative in a rock band, and other friends and relatives who are concert pianists. I've also heard a full orchestra recording at Abbey Road no 1 studio, plus live feeds from the mixing room (and I own the CD!). I know the difference that bass makes.

Achieving loud volumes at gigs rarely comes with fidelity, though they can be great fun. But they are unlike studio productions as you know.

For me, the point of domestic hifi is not to recreate that live gig, but to present a plausible facsimile. Just as in a move theatre you don't actually think you're in the room with Leonardo Di Caprio, or whoever, but you might get engrossed in the action. I want to be engrossed in the music.

Im not a sub lover, except for AV systems. But REL and BK are leaders in the field. Well set up, they leave your main speakers more in their comfort zone, so they sound better too. But you should never think, wow - listen to that bass, but more how realistic it all feels/sounds.

 

[davedotco]

in your own home is, to all intents and purposes impossible.

But, and it is a big but, there are elements to recorded sound that can, when reproduced well, give the 'feel' of a live sound.

One such element is the real 'kick' in the bass that is so obvious live, amplified or not, and missing in most hi-fi, this is usually referred to as 'slam'. The problem is that it is pretty difficult to achieve without spending a lot of money, powerful amplifiers and speakers with the requisite transient response are not inexpensive.

There is a solution though, and an afordable one, but one that most hi-fi enthusiasts really, really do not want to get involved with. Active monitors.

The difference, with respect to the matter at hand is enormous, if this 'live' feel is important to you, you need to try them. The Adam A7x is about £800, within reach if you sell your Tannoys and add the money to your subwoofer budget, just run them off the pre-out on your Marantz.

 

[Andrewjvt]

A couple of points:

- A sub will go lower than all but the most expensive speakers.
- Speakers with bigger bass units "may" give you what you want.
- The quality of the amp plays a big part in giving bass depth, punch, control and scale.
- A sub "can" be a cheaper way of adding more scale and impact to your system ie. Rather than going for a pretty expensive upgrade.
- Whether this will work for you is down to:
a) Quality of Sub (go with a sealed one)
b) Personal preference.
c) Type of music being played eg. Drum and Bass
d) Decent integration

I think going the Sub route has a lot of merits....and thanks to the comments on this thread, you'll would be going in with your eyes open.

Ideally, you should try various options and see what works for you.

There is no substitute for old school large 12inch - 15inch drivers for the real sound and who wants 3 - 4 large boxes to dominate the room. It will look like a hifi shop

 

[CnoEvil]

There is no substitute for old school large 12inch - 15inch drivers for the real sound

There is also no substitute for the very deep pockets required to buy genuine full range speakers, along with an amp to drive them (unless you follow the Lindsay route).

The right Sub allows a small taste of this, at a more realistic budget.

 

[davedotco]

There is no substitute for old school large 12inch - 15inch drivers for the real sound

There is also no substitute for the very deep pockets required to buy genuine full range speakers, along with an amp to drive them (unless you follow the Lindsay route).

The right Sub allows a small taste of this, at a more realistic budget.

The sub bass is not what is missing in this instance, it is a lack of 'mid' bass punch that is the issue.

A good sized driver with a decent transient response is what is required along with sufficient power. This as you pointed out is not cheap, think of the Heco Direkt, currently starring in their own thread, plus some decent amplification.

Speakers of this type (Also think Audio Note, Snell, Klipsch etc) major on speed and dynamics and the result is a very live sound. Sometimes the sound is not as 'sophisticated' as the better conventional hi-fi speakers but whether that matters or not depends on you.

For several reasons, primarily to do with their designed purpose, active studio monitors have a lot of these qualities at a cost well below the conventional hi-fi alternatives. Something like the Adam A7x costs just £800pr, a 7 inch bass driver with a 100watt direct connected amplifier sounds much bigger than you would expect and the bass punch is, for the price, phenominal.

Add the advantage of bass and treble shelving controls and for the right person these speakers really take some beating.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

My system consists of Marantz PM8005, Marantz SA8005, Tannoy Precision 6.2, Pro-ject 2 Xperience SB DC, the speaker cables are Gale XL315 (quite old) fitted with banana plugs. I've never biwired or grounded the speakers as when I have enquired on this forum the overwhelming opinion was it does not make a significant difference to warrant the expense.

Perhaps I should have considered speakers with bigger bass driver but I looked at the frequency range of the Precision 6.2's and assumed they would be fine. The speakers are working ok I'm sure. Thank you for your alternative speaker suggestions you have given me a lot to consider.

I am going to try adjusting the speaker position but I don't really have many options.

Get some cheap speaker cable from Maplin, B&Q even, and try grounding and / or bi-wiring. It can't hurt.

Try connecting your main speaker cables to the LF terminals instead of the HF ones. it can't hurt.

I'm not familiar with your speaker cable, but you could try making up some "jumpers", about six inches long, to link the HF and LF +s, HF and LF -s as well. it can make a difference.

All of the above are because of a lot of bi-ampable speakers use little brass jumpers to link the terminals externally, and they can have an awful effect on the sound. And NO, bi-ampable speakers like this do NOT have a PROPER crossover. Decent speaker wire has got to sound better than stamped out brass links, right?

And yes, I am of the school that thinks bi-amping can make a huge difference, given the right amps (in the plural), speakers and cables, of course. Bi-wiring from a single set of amplifier terminals, no. Bi-amping, yes.

 

[CnoEvil]

 

[Andrewjvt]

The sub bass is not what is missing in this instance, it is a lack of 'mid' bass punch that is the issue.

A good sized driver with a decent transient response is what is required along with sufficient power. This as you pointed out is not cheap, think of the Heco Direkt, currently starring in their own thread, plus some decent amplification.

Speakers of this type (Also think Audio Note, Snell, Klipsch etc) major on speed and dynamics and the result is a very live sound. Sometimes the sound is not as 'sophisticated' as the better conventional hi-fi speakers but whether that matters or not depends on you.

For several reasons, primarily to do with their designed purpose, active studio monitors have a lot of these qualities at a cost well below the conventional hi-fi alternatives. Something like the Adam A7x costs just £800pr, a 7 inch bass driver with a 100watt direct connected amplifier sounds much bigger than you would expect and the bass punch is, for the price, phenominal.

Add the advantage of bass and treble shelving controls and for the right person these speakers really take some beating.

You may be right.

In my case, I've got Kef Ref 205/2s, which I mostly prefer without the Sub...but on certain types of music, it's amazing how much of the really deep bass is missing, which isn't obvious until the Sub is used.

The bass was good but also in a way missing also