Turning myself in knots a bit... I want stereo hi-fi and a centre channel

[petenz]

My priorities are:

- Good stereo hi-fi (e.g. Dali Zensor 3 + stereo amp)

- A centre channel to separate voices because I struggle to hear what people are saying on TV so turn it up, then shake the house down when music or sound effects kick in

Am I missing something here or do I need to make the leap in cost from good stereo hi-fi to full home cinema setup?

Does 3 or 3.1 exist?

Excuse my naivety!

 

[bluedroog]

They used to produce 'processors' with three amplified channels to add to a stereo amp for 5.1. Given those three would be the centre and rears I'm not sure if there's a way around it being processed as such. I think if you wan't to do it correctly you'll need a 5.1 /7.1 amp, you may be able to configure one as such that you can use the spare channels to bi-amp your speakers.

 

[davedotco]

If you want to use a tv centre channel then you will need an AVR, it is the only way of getting the voices to a separate centre channel. Normally such a receiver can be switched to regular stereo or 2.1 if you want to play music.

One feature to look for on the AVR is 'Virtual centre channel', or words to that effect. It mixes the additional centre channel information into your stereo speakers creating a solid central image for voices and centre channel information only, one that you can control separately. This means that you do not need an actual centre speaker, which can be helpfull.

 

[manix]

Rememebr films are mastered as you would hear in a cinema. So there will always be a huge difference between action parts and just speech.

If you get a av reciever or av processor it should have a dynamic range adjustment, my rotel rsp1068 even has this and it's many years old. Max setting being usually as was intened on the sound track. Adjusting this setting should make the difference between the low's and high less of a problem.

It's possible even a tv would have this setting so if you output from that with a lower dynamic setting to your stereo amp it might fix the problem.

 

[petenz]

Rememebr films are mastered as you would hear in a cinema. So there will always be a huge difference between action parts and just speech.

Okay so I guess this is intentional. Separately boosting the centre channel would give clearer/louder speech relative to action though, right?

 

[iMark]

We have the following setup:

TV connected to a stereo DAC. To the TV a Bluray player and a cable PVR are connected. (The DAC is connected to the stereo amp).

We have discovered that if we switch all our sources to 2.0, the TV will pass this on to the DAC. Bluray and DVD discs sound much better in 2.0 rather than a mixed down multichannel version. Same goes for Netflix. Dialogue sounds fine in our stereo setup.

 

[manix]

Rememebr films are mastered as you would hear in a cinema. So there will always be a huge difference between action parts and just speech.

Okay so I guess this is intentional. Separately boosting the centre channel would give clearer/louder speech relative to action though, right?

Yes and no because speak it isn't the only thing that would come out of a centre speaker. As you can imagine sound moves around to give effects. It doesn't just jump from left to right and avoid the centre. Then if the explosion is in the centre of the film of course the centre channel would be used.

Hence me suggesting using some dynamic range compression which should bring the action parts down and the speech parts up. It was design for this very problem. So in theory that might solve your problem without a centre speaker. Most processors should have it. A disc player, TV or set-top box might have it.

Obviously if you want to get the best out of films you need at least 5.1.

 

[insider9]

Something brighter would work better as "fronts" in a stereo home cinema setup. You wouldn't need a centre if you're happy with your amp. Until recently I used Monitor Audio BX5 quite successfully playing sound of my TV. Metal dome dome tweeters in that case worked extremely well. I have now change to Tannoy DC6T and they don't work as well but it doesn't bother me much as music is my priority.

Tweeters on Zensors aren't bright enough in my opinion for that purpose. Maybe try MA Bronze 2 and see if it makes a difference.

 

[ellisdj]

I like the idea of the arcam AVR250 - its is a stereo power amp with hdmi switching, class g amplification - it has dedicated processing for a phantom centre channel amd it has dirac room correction as well.

Not cheap but ideal for someone who has a pure stereo system but wants better sound for tv and movies etc from one unit.

 

[luckylion100]

a 2nd hand Yamaha DSPE800 AV Processor (or similar) and centre channel speaker to the stereo amp he plans to get? I saw a new one (unboxed) going for £50 recently.

 

[Leeps]

No system is perfect at this. Life is full of compromises.

As stated already, much is how the soundtrack has been mastered, and you need to pay attention to this. If you're listening to a BBC transmission, it's likely in stereo. So the speech element is not separated so no amount ot tweaking, AVR or not, will resolve this successfully.

But often the biggest culprit for speech/sound effects disparity is in movies where the original master has been designed for full range in a cinema and if it's a 5.1 or 7.1 mix, this is easier to address. Although I would argue that speech is often too quiet and muffled in the cinema too, with effects gut-wrenchingly loud at times (like Interstellar, which I enjoyed listening to at home much more, it was sufficiently quiet to actually hear it).

My own AVR has a control app that can boost the speech element separately. You can download the app and view it in demo mode if you want to try it: "iControlAV5" on Apple's App Store. It also offers a mode called "Optimum Surround" that compresses the dynamic range and can minimise the scrambling-for-the-remote problem. But with the worst movies, you won't solve this completely so don't think an AV receiver is the panacea for everything. But you do have a great deal more control than a stereo amp. It was the main reason I got rid of my stereo set-up some years ago.

Some would argue that the best of both worlds would be to use the AV receiver for movies, then use the pre-outs (available on some, but not all AV receivers) into a stereo amp for front left & right channels. Then use all stereo only sources directly into your stereo amp. This is easier to implement if your stereo amp has either a "Home Theatre Bypass" input that turns one input on the stereo amp into a power amplifier for your AVR, or at least if you have a digital volume control where you can set your input volume to a specific and memorable volume each time you use the input from the AVR.

 

[manix]

a 2nd hand Yamaha DSPE800 AV Processor (or similar) and centre channel speaker to the stereo amp he plans to get? I saw a new one (unboxed) going for £50 recently.

I think they are that old I doubt that they have dynamic calibration on (or what ever the manufacturer calls it for their system). Not only that Yamaha stuff of that time if you needed to pro logic the sound was just plain awful IMO. Without even looking I would guess the DSP e800 dates back to the 90's and IMO the stuff they banged out at the start of the 00's wasn't up to much.

 

[manix]

No system is perfect at this. Life is full of compromises.

As stated already, much is how the soundtrack has been mastered, and you need to pay attention to this. If you're listening to a BBC transmission, it's likely in stereo. So the speech element is not separated so no amount ot tweaking, AVR or not, will resolve this successfully.

But often the biggest culprit for speech/sound effects disparity is in movies where the original master has been designed for full range in a cinema and if it's a 5.1 or 7.1 mix, this is easier to address. Although I would argue that speech is often too quiet and muffled in the cinema too, with effects gut-wrenchingly loud at times (like Interstellar, which I enjoyed listening to at home much more, it was sufficiently quiet to actually hear it).

My own AVR has a control app that can boost the speech element separately. You can download the app and view it in demo mode if you want to try it: "iControlAV5" on Apple's App Store. It also offers a mode called "Optimum Surround" that compresses the dynamic range and can minimise the scrambling-for-the-remote problem. But with the worst movies, you won't solve this completely so don't think an AV receiver is the panacea for everything. But you do have a great deal more control than a stereo amp. It was the main reason I got rid of my stereo set-up some years ago.

Some would argue that the best of both worlds would be to use the AV receiver for movies, then use the pre-outs (available on some, but not all AV receivers) into a stereo amp for front left & right channels. Then use all stereo only sources directly into your stereo amp. This is easier to implement if your stereo amp has either a "Home Theatre Bypass" input that turns one input on the stereo amp into a power amplifier for your AVR, or at least if you have a digital volume control where you can set your input volume to a specific and memorable volume each time you use the input from the AVR.

I originally went down the pre-outs on a av receiver route to a intregrated amp and quite frankly it's rubbish. You only have to think about it for a second to understand why. Different gains on the amps, amps react different as the current is drawn and the amps just plain sound different.

The correct way to do it is use a proper pre amp/av processor and multi channel poweramps or all the same poweramps.

 

[davedotco]

I like the idea of the arcam AVR250 - its is a stereo power amp with hdmi switching, class g amplification - it has dedicated processing for a phantom centre channel amd it has dirac room correction as well.

Not cheap but ideal for someone who has a pure stereo system but wants better sound for tv and movies etc from one unit.

Expensive new but used? Might be what you need, good music performance and the phantom centre is a big plus in this application.

 

[luckylion100]

a 2nd hand Yamaha DSPE800 AV Processor (or similar) and centre channel speaker to the stereo amp he plans to get? I saw a new one (unboxed) going for £50 recently.

I think they are that old I doubt that they have dynamic calibration on (or what ever the manufacturer calls it for their system). Not only that Yamaha stuff of that time if you needed to pro logic the sound was just plain awful IMO. Without even looking I would guess the DSP e800 dates back to the 90's and IMO the stuff they banged out at the start of the 00's wasn't up to much.

It won the What Hi-Fi award in 2000, yes old but still offers DTS, Dolby Digital, Pro Logic (no winding up involved) ;-) And if all the OP requires is a dedicated centre channel a look on Ebay won't do any harm. It's an option and could amount to peanuts in cost. Steve_1979 uses one but that I believe is simply for the EQ settings availble. Again I'm not saying it's the definitive answer, just a cheap possibility.

 

[bluedroog]

a 2nd hand Yamaha DSPE800 AV Processor (or similar) and centre channel speaker to the stereo amp he plans to get? I saw a new one (unboxed) going for £50 recently.

I think they are that old I doubt that they have dynamic calibration on (or what ever the manufacturer calls it for their system). Not only that Yamaha stuff of that time if you needed to pro logic the sound was just plain awful IMO. Without even looking I would guess the DSP e800 dates back to the 90's and IMO the stuff they banged out at the start of the 00's wasn't up to much.

This amp was my first step in to surround sound, it is a very fine unit. It had quite a forward, detailed sound which I think would suit OP. It also does do DD. Pro Logic to Dolby Digital I think was once of the most significant steps forward, many of the advances now are little more than an excuse to get more money out of the consumer who wants the latest bells and whistles. There are some serious bargains to be had with pre HDMI units. I sold a Denon 3805 which I replaced the Yammy with for about £100 last year, it was a £1,200 machine about 13 years ago which would be signiciant in today's money.

 

[manix]

a 2nd hand Yamaha DSPE800 AV Processor (or similar) and centre channel speaker to the stereo amp he plans to get? I saw a new one (unboxed) going for £50 recently.

I think they are that old I doubt that they have dynamic calibration on (or what ever the manufacturer calls it for their system). Not only that Yamaha stuff of that time if you needed to pro logic the sound was just plain awful IMO. Without even looking I would guess the DSP e800 dates back to the 90's and IMO the stuff they banged out at the start of the 00's wasn't up to much.

It won the What Hi-Fi award in 2000, yes old but still offers DTS, Dolby Digital, Pro Logic (no winding up involved) ;-) And if all the OP requires is a dedicated centre channel a look on Ebay won't do any harm. It's an option and could amount to peanuts in cost. Steve_1979 uses one but that I believe is simply for the EQ settings availble. Again I'm not saying it's the definitive answer, just a cheap possibility.

Well that was the time I was getting into av and did actually have a audition. Not enough power for a kick off. But did spend double on what was also a what hifi 5 star Yamaha in the end say in 2002. I supose it was OK for the money then probably £550 but Pro logic was poor and TBH nothing was that great in my view. So 2 years later binned it and went to a ROTEL RSP 1068 + RMB 1075, a bit of step up but at that point I knew all the short comings and I knew what I wanted from a system.

Anyway as I said before raising the gain on the centre speaker only partially fixes the problem and in some circumstances will do pretty well zero. What you actually need is a system where you restrict the higher levels for action and increase the speech levels to get a happy medium - dynamic range compression.

 

[manix]

a 2nd hand Yamaha DSPE800 AV Processor (or similar) and centre channel speaker to the stereo amp he plans to get? I saw a new one (unboxed) going for £50 recently.

I think they are that old I doubt that they have dynamic calibration on (or what ever the manufacturer calls it for their system). Not only that Yamaha stuff of that time if you needed to pro logic the sound was just plain awful IMO. Without even looking I would guess the DSP e800 dates back to the 90's and IMO the stuff they banged out at the start of the 00's wasn't up to much.

This amp was my first step in to surround sound, it is a very fine unit. It had quite a forward, detailed sound which I think would suit OP. It also does do DD. Pro Logic to Dolby Digital I think was once of the most significant steps forward, many of the advances now are little more than an excuse to get more money out of the consumer who wants the latest bells and whistles. There are some serious bargains to be had with pre HDMI units. I sold a Denon 3805 which I replaced the Yammy with for about £100 last year, it was a £1,200 machine about 13 years ago which would be signiciant in today's money.

I have heard them many eons ago I wasn't taken. Though in the light of surround or no surround it is a big step.

It sure is a buyers market for AV receivers a 13 year old machine that cost £1200 be worth £100 is shocking. The problem is the processing side is out of date while the amps are fine in the unit.

I managed to get a deal on my Rotel RSP 1068 pre/processor + RMB 1075 5 channel power new in 2004 for £1520 it was 20% off week on everything in the shop, took a Friday off work if I remember correctly and spent the day demoing. The RMB 1075 power amps go for £300-£400 on the bay now (new £850 rrp in 2004) the RSP 1068 go for about £300 (new £1050 in 2004). So on £1520 I have lost £700-800 in 12 years which isn't bad and it's used everyday.

 

[petenz]

We have discovered that if we switch all our sources to 2.0, the TV will pass this on to the DAC. Bluray and DVD discs sound much better in 2.0 rather than a mixed down multichannel version. Same goes for Netflix. Dialogue sounds fine in our stereo setup.

I've found the same but also found that switching to 2.0 is not always an option with Netflix in particular.

 

[steve_1979]

a 2nd hand Yamaha DSPE800 AV Processor (or similar) and centre channel speaker to the stereo amp he plans to get? I saw a new one (unboxed) going for £50 recently.

I think they are that old I doubt that they have dynamic calibration on (or what ever the manufacturer calls it for their system). Not only that Yamaha stuff of that time if you needed to pro logic the sound was just plain awful IMO. Without even looking I would guess the DSP e800 dates back to the 90's and IMO the stuff they banged out at the start of the 00's wasn't up to much.

It won the What Hi-Fi award in 2000, yes old but still offers DTS, Dolby Digital, Pro Logic (no winding up involved) ;-) And if all the OP requires is a dedicated centre channel a look on Ebay won't do any harm. It's an option and could amount to peanuts in cost. Steve_1979 uses one but that I believe is simply for the EQ settings availble. Again I'm not saying it's the definitive answer, just a cheap possibility.

It's a great piece of kit in many ways but one thing to bare in mind is that being 16 years old it doesn't have any HDMI sockets which for many people is a deal breaker.