This system should sound rubbish, right?

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At the heart, or at least in the middle, admittedly I do have two audiolan 8000A mid 80's vintage, but they've not been re-furbished other than replacing the RCA sockets which crumbled. I am bi-amping with these, using one as a pre-amp.

But the bread around this meat is a circa 20 year old std Marantz CD63 (not SE, not KI) and a pair of Kef IQ1 (yes one, the cheapest in the range).

Speaker cable is Maplin 12AWG stranded OFC - £2 / metre.

Interconnect I made myself 20 years ago from some hi quality interconnect cable and some gold plated connectors.

Stands are Atacama Nexus 6, albeit with £80 worth of lead shot in them now.

And, to complete my sins, I have an EPOS M Sub-Woofer, trimmed to seem inaudible.

Esoteric, NOT !

So, that's my membership of this forum cancelled.

But I can tell you, this lot sounds exceptionally good.

I had been looking to replace most of it, because the sound was fine on detailed stuff, but when the music went up tempo it seemed to fall all over itself. But the lead in the stands seems to have fixed that.

I did however go out to audition some other stuff, including the new Audiolab 8200CD. Now that was good and on some music quite noticeably better than my CD63 in a back to back comparison with my actual machine I took along. But that was through some very expensive amp and speaker set up costing about £5000.

And the rub is that the whole system sound did not really grab me compared to this "mish mash" I have at home, which most of the time sounds sublime. The same was true of another audition with components each costing £800 - £1000.

What's my point? Don't knock it till you've heard it, don't throw it till you've compared it, don't assume new is better and why not give a sub-woofer and small bookshelf combo a try - it really works. I am told the Epos is one of very few musical subs under a grand, so I guess that's the hard bit for people. I bought one for £200 end of line when they had been £650 and they don't make them any more.

I know I'll be acused of heracy, but I think speaker makes have been getting it wrong all these years trying to push their standard speakers down to low frequency - they just can't do it and all sorts of compromises are made to extend the base that far, or worse give the impression of base extension. A sub is desigend to do that and if designed for music can sound very good indeed - the speajer is freed up from trying to wobble like a jelly and the amp is releived of all that power sapping LF stuff. I don't like boom in teh base and this avoids that - you can also trim the base down how you like it.

I will still be looking for some new gear, but I am going to be very wary of what I buy and I think will have to demand a home audition or I could spend hundreds for a new and shinier system sounding less good than the old.
 
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the record spot

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No issues from me mate - 34 year old dual mono amplifier at the heart of this system, a pair of 16 year old speakers, 322-strand speaker cable that cost me 50p/metre and two interconnects that cost me £27 all in. One of those was £7 and it's the one I use most. Contemporary wisdom isn't always the best and while budget entry level gear is way better than its kind of 20 years ago, that doesn't make it true that all such gear from back then was poor. Shrewd buying reaps rewards IMO.
 

Richard Allen

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TheMusic:I know I'll be acused of heracy, but I think speaker makes have been getting it wrong all these years trying to push their standard speakers down to low frequency - they just can't do it and all sorts of compromises are made to extend the base that far, or worse give the impression of base extension. A sub is desigend to do that and if designed for music can sound very good indeed - the speajer is freed up from trying to wobble like a jelly and the amp is releived of all that power sapping LF stuff. I don't like boom in teh base and this avoids that - you can also trim the base down how you like it.

Could do with a few more like you out there in buying land. I like your common sense approach. Reminds me of the phrase " If it ain't broke, don't fix it !!" I fully agree with your approach but, just so I fit in on these forums, HERETIC!!!!!
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A

Anonymous

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One of my freinds dad has a late 80's Onkyo TX something stereo receiver with a Techincs turntable and Misson standmount speakers. He has had it since i was a kid and it still works great and is one of the best stereo systems i have heard. Not the most detailed by todays standard but it has a very pleasant sound that you can listen to for hours and hours with your mouth open and just enjoy. It works great for parties too with a real sense of rythm.

One of these days i will win him over and buy it. Now i think he just enjoys saying NO every time i go over there but he always offers me a glass of jameson and a cigar while we sit and listen to some of his (usually) simon garfunkle albums or other music from that era. Maybe he wont sell it just because he thinks i wont come over for our listening sessions with the jameson. All round great guy too and I see him more than his son now lol.
 

chelstondave

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Well it seems to me that we all have different tastes in music and the sounds that our systems produce. I don't think you can say that one system sounds good and one sounds rubbish as it is all so subjective. Bottom line is, if you are happy with what your ears are hearing keep it and spend you hard earned cash on something else.
 

Frank Harvey

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The Marantz CD players always made good sources, SE/KI or not - at one point during the 80's, probably most of the systems in the UK were fronted by a Marantz! And never underestimate the classic 8000A - so good it could pretty much make any speaker sound good. and as for the KEFs, drive any good KEF speaker well and you're going to hear why people like them. Their ability to dig detail out of more complex mixes leaves most competitors behind.

I can understand you questioning the system and it's anticipated sound, as I would be a little bit wary myself - a neutral 8000A driving lean sounding KEFs fronted by a source with a tendency towards brightness. At least you could guess that the overall sound isn't going to be a dull listen!

I do find it a little funny when I suggest a product to some based on what they've told me they're after - and they instantly dismiss a recommendation of mine because they heard a product by that manufacturer in 1982 and didn't like it! They tend to base their whole conception of modern products on that one, long distant, listening experience. It's also like the way many dismiss Naim because they heard a system at a hi-fi show in 1993 and since then considered them to be rubbish. Some people have missed out on some serious hi-fi classics this way.

One advantage you have with your system though is that it's at home - a system will always sound far better at home hat it does in a store - I've said to many people that they could try a system in store, buy the next models down of each component, take them home and the system would still sound better than the one heard in store! I think some people think I'm BS'ing when I say that, but I've put on systems in store identical to the one I have at home over the years and they've never sounded a patch on mine in comparison.

The moral here is to try something - even if you font like that manufacturer - there's so many people who were adamant they don't like KEF who're being rather surprised at the moment!!
 

chebby

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FrankHarveyHiFi:It's also like the way many dismiss Naim because they heard a system at a hi-fi show in 1993 and since then considered them to be rubbish.

I heard many Naim systems in the 1980s and 1990s. Everything from the original Nait (with obligatory Linn Kans) to tri-amped NAP250/Linn Isobarik systems.

Hated them all. Their dealers always played them too loud, always fronted them with Linn Sondeks, always demo'ed them with Dire Straits and Phil Collins (or some gawdawful Linn Records folk music pressing) and always vociferously maintained that nothing else could play music 'musically'.

The monotonous bass, the dogma, the bleeding ears, the endless Phil Collins, and effing 'Telegraph Road', the dealer who would stand there with eyes closed, shouting his praise over the 'music' like some looney cult acolyte and who wouldn't even notice if you had run away mid-demo! (To buy Neurofen.)
 

chebby

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the record spot:I see that Ash has arrived... ;)

Not so much. That was my experience of Naim (and Linn) system demos in the 1980s and early 1990s.

Both companies (and their products and 'philosophies') have changed since then, their dealers have changed, and the hifi press has changed. One magazine - Popular Hi-Fi I think - spent almost the whole of the 1980s as a Linn/Naim 'in-house' publication (or so it seemed at the time).
 

Frank Harvey

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chebby:I heard many Naim systems in the 1980s and 1990s. Everything from the original Nait (with obligatory Linn Kans) to tri-amped NAP250/Linn Isobarik systems. Hated them all. Their dealers always played them too loud, always fronted them with Linn Sondeks, always demo'ed them with Dire Straits and Phil Collins (or some gawdawful Linn Records folk music pressing) and always vociferously maintained that nothing else could play music 'musically'
Something tells me you didn't visit ALL dealers then....

Very few budget amplifiers over the past 20 years can really lay claim to being a serious bargain for their price point. Along with the Audiolab 8000A, the Naim Nait 1 and 2 can count itself in. In the early 90's, I'd have taken the shoebox sized olive Nait 2 over ANY integrated amplifier below £1k. Fantasic little amp.

I'd rather pick a Naim 72/Hi-Cap/250 with a Sondek (not my favourite T/T by the way) with Epos ES14's over any equivalently priced CD based system today. Far more three dimensional, far more balanced and far more enjoyable. Anybody care to set up a demo some time?
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the record spot:I see that Ash has arrived... ;)
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Frank Harvey

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chebby:Both companies (and their products and 'philosophies') have changed since then, their dealers have changed, and the hifi press has changed. One magazine - Popular Hi-Fi I think - spent almost the whole of the 1980s as a Linn/Naim 'in-house' publication (or so it seemed at the time).
Everything changes.
 
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Anonymous

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Most amusing Chebby
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A good post by the OP. The danger is when you start to upgrade and change a component. You start to analyse the sound more and more, leading to further purchases and dissatisfaction. If the system makes you enjoy the music, wait until it goes bang before replacing it. (The primary reason I changed my perfectly good system was to reconfigure the physical arrangement.)
 
A

Anonymous

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UPDATE:-

Despite the post, and having started tinkering, I though I would update you.

I have swapped out the Audiolabs with a Quad 909 on home audition. I was happy before - now its amazing. The Quad 909 goes deep with an even wider and clearer soundstage than the Audiolab - I now find the system better without the Sub at all, because the 909 drives the speakers so well the sub is no longer required. I was not expecting that degree of improvement.

I would 100% go with the view expressed about home audition - there is something about shop listening that just does not work for me. Everything sounds better at home.
 

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