The rule of thirds?

[Kevin Stephens]

After considering the options to replace my CD player I've decided to go the whole hog and replace my 15 year old system (MF Electra E10 amp, Maranttz CD53, Dacmagic 2 (1995 version) and Castle Durhams on decent filled Foundation stands (which I wil be keeping)

I'll be demoing the likes of Naim Nait 5i, Roksan Kandy2, Musical Fidelity 3.5 (ex demo) etc CD and amp combinations, also Cambridge Azur if I can find a Richer sounds with proper demo facilities. also getting new speaker cables, keeping Cambridge top of range interconnects. As far as speakers go; I'm happy to try out dealers suggestions and see how they sound with the above.

When I bought my first HiFi the percieved wisdom was to budget in equal thirds: CD, amp and speakers (maybe a lttle more on CD and a tad less on speakers). Is this still the case?

i.e. would I need to spend £800 on (standmount) speakers to get the best out of a similarly priced amp?

I will investigate this when I go to the dealers, but it would help to get an idea first to help with budgeting

Many thanks

 

[respe]

I think you should take your castles to the dealers with you, as you may well have to part with a lot more than £800 to really better them, and I doubt you'll hear anything in Richers that will.

You could look around for a newer DAC to take advantage of the changes in DAC technology, and keep the marantz as transport. If you fancy the Naim, try it, and if possible Rega and Exposure into some Neats.

 

[Kevin Stephens]

forgot to mention; the marantz is knackered, keeps skipping and door jams so nee a whole new drive

As for he Durhams, great mid range but top end is awful, I will take them to the dealers, and my amp and DAC to be sure of benefit I am getting from a new system.

 

[Ajani]

I think buying the whole system based on in store auditions (rather than trying to mix and match) is the best way to shop for Hi-Fi (even though it is impractical for many persons, as they often are only looking to upgrade one component at a time)...

I wouldn't worry too much about any particular spending ratio of speakers v amp v source (though thirds - especially with monitors instead of towers) should do just fine...

Good luck with your search and be sure to give us your impressions of the systems you audition...

 

[JoelSim]

Ajani:
I think buying the whole system based on in store auditions (rather than trying to mix and match) is the best way to shop for Hi-Fi (even though it is impractical for many persons, as they often are only looking to upgrade one component at a time)...

I wouldn't worry too much about any particular spending ratio of speakers v amp v source (though thirds - especially with monitors instead of towers) should do just fine...

Good luck with your search and be sure to give us your impressions of the systems you audition...

Agree. But you need to tell us what sort of presentation you're after. Naim = upfront, Cyrus = detailed but thin, Arcam = perfection (or a bit warm if you ask others) and there are so many other combinations...

ÿ

 

[the record spot]

Joelsim is in now way genetically pre-disposed towards Arcam. Just thought I'd make that clear...

 

[Anonymous]

You might want to try Sonus Faber, Totem, B&W ÿCM series, nsats (if you like them, you've become a real naimie and no hope is left), Neat and Spendor speakers with the Naims. Can't comment on the other amps as I haven't heard them.

Is is just the drive that has gone on the Marantz? Usually replacement drives are available.ÿ

 

[chebby]

I have read both online reviews of the Castle Durhams (1994 and 2003 versions) in Gramophone online.

1994 review here .....

http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/November%201994/176/777156

(You need to log in to Gramophone to read the full review. I use my WHF login.)

Both reviews are highly complimentary so I would suggest - if yours are in good working order - that you save the speaker budget for now or use the extra to buy a Nait XS (£1250) instead of the Nait 5i with the CD5i.

The Nait XS gives a far more 3D image than the Nait 5i and would have been my first choice if the budget had stretched. (Alas

)

Both Nait amps are superb but I would recommend partnering either with a Naim CD for the full benefit of their synergy together. CD5i (or CD5X if your budget can go that far).

When funds have recovered, you can think about new speakers if you still feel you need to. (They may sound a lot better with the new system.)

If you are still thinking about new stand-mount speakers try and get to hear the new Rega RS1's (£390 latest price). I have heard them with the Nait XS and they were superb.

 

[Kevin Stephens]

Thanks Chebby

In that case I'm also keen to try the quad 99 CDP-2 / 909 power amp combo. which would also be a neat solution to importing radio vis optical iinput from my cable TV box, and take up a lot less rack room

 

[chebby]

Don't misunderstand me about the Nait 5i imaging properties compared to the XS. It is still capable of excellent transparency and presence but there is more front-to-back depth than width beyond the speakers.

The XS widens everything L-R as well. (Especially with small bookshelf designs which tend to excel in imagery compared to floorstanders.)

This has been commented on quite a bit in the XS reviews. Big scale imagery is not a traditional Naim 'trait'.

 

[chebby]

Kevin Stephens:.... which would also be a neat solution to importing radio vis optical iinput from my cable TV box, and take up a lot less rack room

Have you looked at this?.....

http://www.naim-audio.com/products/naimuniti.html

It contains the Nait 5i and CD5i amp and CD sections and you get a DAC (optical connection) and FM/DAB tuner + wireless internet radio/streaming thrown in too. (£1995 all-in.)

 

[Anonymous]

chebby:
Kevin Stephens:.... which would also be a neat solution to importing radio vis optical iinput from my cable TV box, and take up a lot less rack room

Have you looked at this?.....

http://www.naim-audio.com/products/naimuniti.html

It contains the Nait 5i and CD5i amp and CD sections and you get a DAC (optical connection) and FM/DAB tuner + wireless internet radio/streaming thrown in too. (£1995 all-in.)

I'm worried about you, Chebby, you've caught the Naim disease! Next thing you know you'll understand what they talk about in the Naim forum, then you're lost on the upgrade path forever.ÿ

 

[crusaderlord]

the naimunity looks like a great product to me - if i were starting right from scratch now i would certainly consider this as an option

but my own system is almost complete now (just some partington super stands to go)

as far as speakers go - i personally went for the 3rds option (in what i actually spent at least). also i am not convinced by the stock list in Richer Sounds on speakers offering the best choices

if you can stretch to the £700-£800 bracket then from experience you will get a marked upgrade - i did with the Neat Motives but PMC are great too. Other options i would consider are the Rega range or the Leema Xero.

 

[Anonymous]

The Quad kit is very nice, with a smooth, detailed sound and plenty of power to keep the speakers under control. I've heard it a few times and thought it was great value for money. The Quad 11L stand mounters match well with it (surprise, surprise) although the step change in amp/source quality might make the Castles sound fine.

The Quad sound is somewhat different to the more upfront and fast Naim sound. Give them both a try.

 

[Anonymous]

and there was me thinking this would be a photography thread...

Actually I spent about 250 and 250 on my amp and speakers, but am now thinking that buying a beresford tc-7520 is going to outclass my amp and speakers when fed with lossless. Not really that bothered, though and will probably get an RB06/03 to redress.

The DAC and lossless choice does upset the balance a bit, as my sense is that a lossless and DAC source is equivalent to a 6-900 pound CDP. This means that those of use on the budget end of the market have a bit of an unbalanced setup according to the rule of thirds.

 

[Kevin Stephens]

Thanks for all the advice

Well I had it all worked out!

On paper the quad 99 CDP and 99 or 909 power amplifier would be a great upgrade to my old system, and could live on and behind my TV allowing me to also benefit from high quality radio via my cable box optical out and lose the black tower that currently sits on wooden shelves next to my couch. If my Castle speakers raised their game with the new kit I wouldn't have to buy new speakers. My local dealer was also keen to demo the Naim Nait i compbo and the Roksan Kandy pair, although this would have necesitated a new rack and keeping my analogue tuner and/or 1995 Dacmagic for digital radio.

But being a Musical Fidelity owner (budget E10 amp and E60 tuner from early '90s) I was curious to try heaviliy discounted ex demo MF 3.5 amp and CD, which seemed very interesting.

I found a dealer where I could compare the MF3.5 with the Quad 99CDP2 and 99 power (909 may have been a fair match on power if not price but wasn't available) prior to demo of Quad, Naim, Roksan at my local dealer later in the week (local dealer only had the MF CD but not the amp)

So this afternoon I took along Beth Orton's Comfort of Strangers, Simon Rattle's Mahler 10, Rolling Stones' Exile on Mainstreet and Durufle's Requiem.

First I tried the MF with my old Castle Speakers. I was gobsmacked at how good my speakers sounded with the better CD and amp compared to the sound I had lived with for the last 12 years. I was really pleased with the cost saving from not having to chage them...

Then it was turn for the Monitor Audio GS10's Oh Dear......

This wasn't going to be so cheap after all. Beth Orton's backing instruments were so much clearer and atmospheric, but the most amazing change was with Mahler 10, the violins after start of the Adagio were much more real and as for the Finale; oh my god!..The Stones seemd to be having a lot more fun too.

Now onto the Quad. Firstly the dealer quite sensibly keeps the remotes stashed safely so to deal with the panel push buttons was worse than a £2.50 radio alarm- not like MF's reassuring big metal volume wheel. The sound was really disapointing given my high expectations, hardly better than my old set up, plenty of detail from the CD but the 99 amp just couldn't match the MF 3.5. I am sure the 909 would have been a much more even match with similar power and quality - but unfortunately only available at recently increased full price.

So I bought the MF 3.5 amp and CD and GS10s, all ex demo from a combination of the two dealer to get the best prices (they seemed happy with this as neither dealer had the full package at ex demo) I also got a half price ex demo Apollo Rack. All in all 1/3 off list price for teh whole package inc quality speaker cables, (reusing the good quality interconnects from my old system). There didn't seem any point trying the Naim and Roksan options. A fair bit more than I had originally planned to spend but it is my birthday and I am sure I won't need to upgrade again for at least 20 years. I look forward to comparing my MF analogue tuner ad digital radio via my old Dacmagic when piled through the new amp and speakers (on my old Foundation stands).

Main lessons: Look out for good ex demo deals, Don't rely too much on this year's favourite reviews, google for reviews of older gear to help with your short list. Spend time in the dealers, trust your own ears, take your own CDs and lots of time, compromise on logistics and practicality but not on sound quality.