The excitement threshold

[wilro15]

Does anyone else experience how music comes "alive" over a certain volume level? I find when music is not loud enough that it sounds dull, flat and you can't focus on it too much. Over a certain volume level the bass suddenly appears, the treble sparkles and you can lose yourself in the depth of the music.

What is it that causes this? Is it my ears that don't respond to low volume levels due to past abuse in nightclubs? Or is it the system that I am listening to (see my sig) whereby the speakers only really come alive above a certain level?

Maybe it is just my perception but I find it means I can't listen to music that is too quiet as a result.

 

[ID.]

I know what you mean, but I've no idea what the psychological or other causes might be.

That's one of the reasons dealers tend to play things very loud when showing off kit. I've heard some people attributing differences in cables to volume differences and the fact that a slightly higher volume will bring out (or at least bring about the perception of) more detail and bass, etc.

 

[BigH]

It maybe to do with control of the drivers and passive crossovers, certainly passive speakers do change in sound as you increase the volume, actives just seem to get louder as you increase the volume.

 

[Inter_Voice]

Does anyone else experience how music comes "alive" over a certain volume level? I find when music is not loud enough that it sounds dull, flat and you can't focus on it too much. Over a certain volume level the bass suddenly appears, the treble sparkles and you can lose yourself in the depth of the music.

What is it that causes this? Is it my ears that don't respond to low volume levels due to past abuse in nightclubs? Or is it the system that I am listening to (see my sig) whereby the speakers only really come alive above a certain level?

Maybe it is just my perception but I find it means I can't listen to music that is too quiet as a result.

The best hearing volume at your ear level is about 75db(A) and to be exact adjust your amplifier output with the help of a sound level meter

 

[Covenanter]

I think this is a pretty standard perception and people doing blind testing have to be very careful to ensure that the sound levels reaching the ears are equal or the louder equipment gets a higher rating. (I've read that somewhere but can't remember where.)

Chris

 

[Covenanter]

I think this is a pretty standard perception and people doing blind testing have to be very careful to ensure that the sound levels reaching the ears are equal or the louder equipment gets a higher rating. (I've read that somewhere but can't remember where.)

Chris

 

[RobinKidderminster]

75db?? Wonder where this came from. Not refuting, just interested. Wonder if room/size has an effwct too? If so it would infer that amp & speakers need to be at a certain level rather than any level at the ear. I know nuffin'.

 

[Inter_Voice]

75db?? Wonder where this came from. Not refuting, just interested. Wonder if room/size has an effwct too? If so it would infer that amp & speakers need to be at a certain level rather than any level at the ear. I know nuffin'.

I didn't invent it, it is from the manual of my Chesky Testing CD. It is mentioned that before running all the tests be sure the sound level at the listening postion is about 75dB(A).

 

[BigH]

I think the 75db thing is a different thing from how the sound changes as you increase the volume, amps and speakers behave differently may depend on power of amp and design, also speakers have different sensitivity, some are easy to drive and others hard to drive.

 

[pauln]

It's a function of how our ears work, the perceived loudness of different frequencies is not the same as the actual sound pressure levels. Try googling "equal loudness curves" for more information.

Proper amps have a loudness button which boosts the level of the low frequencies to make the listening more enjoyable at low volume levels. Loudness buttons have sadly gone the way of tone controls on so called audiophile amps where the manufacturers have been very successful in persuading some consumers that they should pay a lot more for a lot less. The audiophiles (at least those that believe the hype) would have you believe that these extra circuits detract from the purity of the signal.

Get yourself a reasonably priced Jap amp with a loudness button and tone controls and you'll be OK. The excitement will return and the neighbours won't complain. Or get headphones!

 

[wilro15]

Interesting that some people seem to think it is our ears doing this rather than the equipment. I wondered if different speakers "come alive" at different levels or if the power of the amplifier affected it too.

 

[pauln]

Interesting that some people seem to think it is our ears doing this rather than the equipment. I wondered if different speakers "come alive" at different levels or if the power of the amplifier affected it too.

There's no "think" about it. It's science - use Google.

 

[lindsayt]

I think there's a number of possible reasons for this.

1 background noise level. At lower volumes your lower level details may well get drowned out by background noise - which is likely to be in the region of 30 to 40 dbs.

2 For vocals if they're replayed at a volume that's about 1:1 unamplified recorded to replayed they will tend to sound more realistic than much lower replay volumes. Vocals are often the most important of a typical rock or pop track.

3 Physical impact. the ability of the hi-fi and the recording and the room to transmit air borne bass transient pressure waves and structure borne waves. To low a volume - especially combined with too lean a bass or lack of bass extension robs the physical impact of the music.

4 Fletcher Munson.

5 There's some hi-fi systems that are the sort that you don't know how loudly you're playing it till someone walks in the room. There's some systems that you don't know how quietly you're playing it till someone walks in the room.

 

[JMacMan]

It's a function of how our ears work, the perceived loudness of different frequencies is not the same as the actual sound pressure levels. Try googling "equal loudness curves" for more information.

Proper amps have a loudness button which boosts the level of the low frequencies to make the listening more enjoyable at low volume levels. Loudness buttons have sadly gone the way of tone controls on so called audiophile amps where the manufacturers have been very successful in persuading some consumers that they should pay a lot more for a lot less. The audiophiles (at least those that believe the hype) would have you believe that these extra circuits detract from the purity of the signal.

Get yourself a reasonably priced Jap amp with a loudness button and tone controls and you'll be OK. The excitement will return and the neighbours won't complain. Or get headphones!

I agree. There's just no beating science.

The Fletcher Munson curve is very well known, but has been completely ignored as you say, in the last decade or so, by audiophiles intent on removing as much circuitry as possible, including tone controls and loudness compensation filters, from amplifiers to improve transparency, meanwhile arguing against something such as Class D amplification, which doesn't even have things like a volume pot in the signal path..

There was some sense to it perhaps in the analogue age, but with modern digital pre-amps and DSP, you can have your cake and eat it too; i.e. Fletcher Munson curves can be implemented in DSP with virtually no deleterious effects upon transparency etc.

You simply get a natural and balanced sound in the bass and treble as you turn the volume down....

Certainly my pre-amp/DAC has Fletcher Munson curves built into it - I can switch the feature off - but on advice from the acoustics engineer who wrote the software code, I'm very happy to just leave it on - the results are natural sound at all volume levels.

Works for me..

JB

 

[pauln]

Certainly my pre-amp/DAC has Fletcher Munson curves built into it - I can switch the feature off - but on advice from the acoustics engineer who wrote the software code, I'm very happy to just leave it on - the results are natural sound at all volume levels.

Works for me..

JB

What is it?

 

[busb]

Fletcher Munson curves show how our hearing changes with volume levels (as has been pointed out). I have the volume down on my stereo when listening to the TV if alone & turn it up when others are likely to talk - it's about matching the dynamic range of the source to the listening environment to maintain speach intelligibility.

However, the quality of amplification can make listening at lower volumes more enjoyable with the perception of grerater bass so equipment does play some part, IMO. Good amplification can also give the impression of being less loud (if that makes any sense).

As for a certain threshhold where music sounds better, I agree but with the observation that it has an upper limit where it become uncomfortable for varying reasons such as me wondering if my neighbours have gone out or not or just sounds "shouty". There's a window of volume I try to keep to that can be effected by my mood where the upper level shifts.

 

[JMacMan]

Certainly my pre-amp/DAC has Fletcher Munson curves built into it - I can switch the feature off - but on advice from the acoustics engineer who wrote the software code, I'm very happy to just leave it on - the results are natural sound at all volume levels.

Works for me..

JB

What is it?

It's part of a B&O AV system - it's an V1-40 - which is a TV ostensibly, but it is also a preamp/DAC/surround sound processor/fully active centre channel speaker array, used as part of a total B&O AV system in the context of B&O active speakers connected to it. It has onboard DSP including loudness compensation, referred to in the handbook as Fletcher Munson Curves, and the filtering can be switched on or off, or tailored to suit as regards the filter slope. It can also be set to be either active or not, and/or with a tailored filter slope, in any of the seven different sound modes provided.

'tis very nice...

JB

 

[pauln]

Certainly my pre-amp/DAC has Fletcher Munson curves built into it - I can switch the feature off - but on advice from the acoustics engineer who wrote the software code, I'm very happy to just leave it on - the results are natural sound at all volume levels.

Works for me..

JB

What is it?

It's part of a B&O AV system - it's an V1-40 - which is a TV ostensibly, but it is also a preamp/DAC/surround sound processor/fully active centre channel speaker array, used as part of a total B&O AV system in the context of B&O active speakers connected to it. It has onboard DSP including loudness compensation, referred to in the handbook as Fletcher Munson Curves, and the filtering can be switched on or off, or tailored to suit as regards the filter slope. It can also be set to be either active or not, and/or with a tailored filter slope, in any of the seven different sound modes provided.

'tis very nice...

JB

It would be a useful feature to have in an amplifier.

I Googled the TV and saw how expensive it is - I think my Panasonic will do fine! Also saw some very negative reviews of it, oddly, however the all metal construction appeals, speaking as someone that hates plastic, even posh plastic.

 

[JMacMan]

Certainly my pre-amp/DAC has Fletcher Munson curves built into it - I can switch the feature off - but on advice from the acoustics engineer who wrote the software code, I'm very happy to just leave it on - the results are natural sound at all volume levels.

Works for me..

JB

What is it?

It's part of a B&O AV system - it's an V1-40 - which is a TV ostensibly, but it is also a preamp/DAC/surround sound processor/fully active centre channel speaker array, used as part of a total B&O AV system in the context of B&O active speakers connected to it. It has onboard DSP including loudness compensation, referred to in the handbook as Fletcher Munson Curves, and the filtering can be switched on or off, or tailored to suit as regards the filter slope. It can also be set to be either active or not, and/or with a tailored filter slope, in any of the seven different sound modes provided.

'tis very nice...

JB

It would be a useful feature to have in an amplifier.

I Googled the TV and saw how expensive it is - I think my Panasonic will do fine! Also saw some very negative reviews of it, oddly, however the all metal construction appeals, speaking as someone that hates plastic, even posh plastic.

In Australia it's top tier Sony Bravia money, albeit the Sony guys will heavily discount which is something you don't get with B&O.

On the other hand, if you price up a top of the line LCD Sony Bravia TV, add in a fully active centre channel (try actually finding one!), a state of the art surround sound processor, preamp/DAC, and the price for those separate items exceeds the cost of the V1-40 by a rather large amount.

When you view it as the sum of it's parts, and not just a TV, it's actually exceptionally good value for money.

And on sound quality alone, for resolution and dynamics, it bettered my ES Sony digital amp + Naim SBL speakers - something most of my HiFi friends would not believe, until I set up A/B's and fooled them into thinking they were hearing the SBL's when they were actually hearing the TV.

Having said that, if you didn't want or need any of those features, I would probably go for a Panasonic Plasma on outright picture quality, followed by the Sony LCD - but certainly I feel the picture quality of the B&O is better than the Sony, maybe on some material, and under certain lighting conditions, not quite as 'filmic' as the Pana plasma, given the different technology mainly, but nonetheless I find little to carp about re picture quality, and nothing as regards sound.

In the context of an integrated AV music/video system with my Lab 9's, it's worth every penny I paid for it and then some.

Some traditional die hard B&O owners hate the looks - however I see it has won a Red Spot design award - I have the black, which is really a charcoal brown, and love it - grows on me every day in the now 10 months I've had it.

Despite the high (relative to other standalone TV's) entry price - highly recommended.

JB