Taking the FLAC

[admin_exported]

I would like to strongly suggest that any device capable of playing audio files (either stored locally or streamed over a network) be judged harshly for any lack of FLAC support (and automatically disqualified from the WHFSV five star rating).

Let's face it, FLAC is the dominant lossless audio file format of the internet, and long may it stay that way. The ability of any audio device to play FLAC files should be an absolute pre-requisite rather than 'nice to have' feature. Further more, FLAC is an open source format, meaning that manufacturers pay no licence free for its inclusion. In short, there's no excuse for its absence.

As for Apple, well, where do I start...? Why on earth would I ever consider converting a huge library of FLAC files only to get tied into a proprietary, commercial, Apple-only lossless format, and in the process subject myself to iTunes...? As much as I appreciate real hi fi brands such as Naim, Arcam, B&W, etc., I would never consider a new media format that tied me into the products of a single organization.

I have an iPhone 3Gs as part of my job. It's a reasonable enough phone (and for owners, the Stanza ebook reading software - NOT written by Apple, is excellent), but I have to say, I certainly don't use it to playback music. Not to mention, I certainly wouldn't tie myself into a nice long £700 contract to own one.

There are better ways to create, encode, catalogue, search and store preserve high quality audio.

By the way, I am aware of the benefits of transcoding, but why should we need to waste clock cycles to achieve something that should be available by default.

Anyway, enough ranting - I see that some of the new Onkyo receivers play FLAC files - Has anyone tried this?

 

[sta99y]

Hi sorry to ask but as I do use my iPhone 3GS to play music via headphone jack into RCA into my amp am I loosing quality in sound? What is a flac format compared to the format of tunes on my iPhone?

Thanks

 

[Anonymous]

Like you, I use a good quality mini jack to RCA / phono cable (Chord) to send audio from a source device to integrated amp (Rotel / Arcam).

For information on FLAC visit: http://flac.sourceforge.net/

As for losing audio quality - Let's start with lossy vs lossless formats. If you are playing a lossy format from your 3Gs (e.g. MP3) the quality will be much lower than that of a lossless format (FLAC or Apple Lossless).

Explanation - Lossy formats are compressed to render the files smaller and thus more portable. Think of image files. Each time a JPG file is edited and saved it gets smaller (and therefore loses image data). This is because it is compressed each time it is saved.

The difference is huge, especially when audio is listened to through a good quality amp and speakers, so you might want to consider the Apple lossless format as you already own a 3Gs (and if top quality audio is important to you - I guess that it is as you're posting on the WHFSV forum).

[EDITED BY MODS - house rules]

Essentially what it comes down to is the 'proprietory vs open source' debate. I am a proponent of open source which means that I want to encode and store my music in formats that are available for use by all manufacturers.

Hope that this helps...

 

[John Duncan]

99.9%* of people use Windows Media Player or iTunes as their music manager. Neither of them support FLAC natively.

Discuss.

* this is a made up statistic, but I'll bet it's about right.

 

[John Duncan]

spring3r:The difference is huge, especially when audio is listened to through a good quality amp and speakers

No it's not.

 

[yiannis550]

It is huge, I double on that. I have a winmo smart phone with Core Player (supports flac) When I connect my phone to my car (which has awesome audio system) if I play MP3 even at high rates (232kb) it has some noise. When I play flac the sound is richer and clean.

 

[Andrew Everard]

OK, apart from the fact that
a) you're using a phone
b) you're using a car system, and
c) you're using 232kb MP3 files, which can easily be bettered without going to lossless encoding.

 

[John Duncan]

yiannis550:if I play MP3 even at high rates (232kb) it has some noise

that sounds like a problem with the player rather than the format...

 

[Anonymous]

I agree. Cut the Apple bond and choose life. Or a Cowon J3. Same thing pretty much.

The love for all things Apple in What Hi-Fi is perplexing and pretty sinister really. Almost Body Snatchers stuff, if you ask me. Apple are rubbish for music playback, having neither flac support or customisable eq options, not to mention the bloated dictatorship of iTunes being infinitely inferior to the likes of Mediamonkey et al.

If I have to read another stupid round up of iPod docks again, or comments about how orgasmic the Touch or iPhone are, I'll be forced to come round your office and go all Jason Bourne with a rolled up copy of the mag.

 

[John Duncan]

bennyboy71:I'll be forced to come round your office and go all Jason Bourne with a rolled up copy of the mag.

Go on then.

 

[John Duncan]

I'm not sure there's necessarily an if-and-only-if relationship between

bennyboy71:Apple are rubbish for music playback

and

bennyboy71:having neither flac support or customisable eq options

 

[Anonymous]

I'll take you up on that challenge ;-)

Here's my view (for what it's worth) -

Microsoft has the PC desktop market 'nailed' (for want of a better term, and has done for years). WMP is installed by default. Therefore it stands to reason that a high percentage of those listening to audio from computers use WMP. These people may not describe themselves as hi-fi geeks or audiophiles.

Apple successfully creates desirable mobile / technology orientated products and, although not cheap, has sought to develop converged products that pretty much do anything.
I'm no more a Microsoft advocate than I am loyal to Apple. I have not used WMP in years, but I'd surprised if they hadn't linked it to some kind of online store. If Microsoft support any lossless format natively my guess is that it supports DRM (like Apple lossless).
So, my view is that FLAC is often not supported for commercial reasons, and this may also explain why Sony's PS3 does not play this format by default. Conversely this is also why FLAC is massively popular on the web, where freedom and flexibility are still valued by billions.

I currently have 12 computers running various operating systems (mostly Linux distributions) - For me, FLAC is important because the audio quality confirms to my requirements. Secondly, it offers flexibility. I will attempt to negate or undermine any and all technologies that attempt to reduce my freedom to play purchased audio or video on any device that I choose in any way that I see fit.

 

[John Duncan]

spring3r:Conversely this is also why FLAC is massively popular on the web, where freedom and flexibility are still valued by billions.

Really? Can you point me at all this (legally) downloadable/purchasable FLAC music, and tell me how much of it is of interest to the 99.9% of users mentioned above?

 

[Anonymous]

Are you suggesting that there is little audible difference between well recorded FLAC files (or other lossless formats) than MP3 files?

I suspect that you are about to suggest that well recorded MP3 files can sound almost as good...

...and although the quality can certainly be improved, aren't many of us constantly tweaking our systems and spending more and more of our hard earned cash upon riding the curve of diminishing returns.

One day I may be able to afford the amp by Chord Electronics ;-))))

 

[Anonymous]

You know that I can't.

I should be able to buy CD media and rip the files to FLAC for my own use, however.

There is nothing morally wrong with that, now, is there?

99.9% of consumers aren't audiophiles.

 

[John Duncan]

spring3r:Are you suggesting that there is little audible difference between well recorded FLAC files (or other lossless formats) than MP3 files?I suspect that you are about to suggest that well recorded MP3 files can sound almost as good...

If you replace 'mp3' with 'lossy', yes (since there are better ways of compressing music lossily than mp3).

 

[John Duncan]

spring3r:You know that I can't.

Which goes against your argument about it being the predominant lossless internet file format. Except amongst pirates, of course - since without them, there isn't one.

spring3r:I should be able to buy CD media and rip the files to FLAC for my own use, however. There is nothing morally wrong with that, now, is there?

Agreed. The law should be changed to accommodate fair use.

spring3r:99.9% of consumers aren't audiophiles.

Agreed, which whilst not negating your argument, will probably preclude FLAC from becoming that predominant format, until Apple or Microsoft build native support into their media players.

 

[Anonymous]

If you replace 'mp3' with 'lossy', yes (since there are better ways of compressing music lossily than mp3).

Like Ogg Vorbiss as used by Spotify for instance. FLAC or ALAC ( I use both) or other lossless compressed file format would be my preferred choice. But my Spotify Off line playlist on my Touch through Bose QC cans sounds pretty damn good. Even sounds good on my main system but for more critical listening (whatever that is) and for archiving has to be lossless everytime.

That being said Napster which I believe uses 128 kps mp3 sounds perfectly acceptable on my Sonos system at home. Horses for course I guess and so easy to convert from one format to another that providing you start with a lossless file it really is a pretty academic argument.

 

[Anonymous]

Go on... Please ellaborate...

I'm interested to learn what lossy formats come close to FLAC in terms of quality.

AGAIN EDITED BY MODS - please do not discuss moderation

I could turn the tables, here, and ask about the degree to which the great 99.9% has shown any interest in them.

The issue here is that storage, these days, is incredibly cheap - I have no problem storing FLAC files.

Even 'Walkmans' - or to incorrectly pluralise 'Walkmen' (term used for amuzement value) have huge capacity, these days.

 

[John Duncan]

spring3r:I'm interested to learn what lossy formats come close to FLAC in terms of quality.

At 320k, as stated above, AAC and Ogg Vorbis do a pretty good job. I haven't listened to WMA for many a year so can't say. I should point out that I say this from the point of view of having spent the last three years being incredibly anal about hard disk storage of music and its reproduction, btw...

 

[Anonymous]

For want of a better term, John, 'it doesn't work'.

My interest in absolute flexibility and the ability to play any media that I have acquired legally in any way that I see fit fly in the face of copyright technology.

A secondary note - I do not accept the presumed authority of either Apple or Microsoft to determine when, where or how I will listen to my music. Neither has a purist audiophile background. The nature of the web means that there are and always will be technologies available to me that allow me to bypass systems that inconvenience me when acting morally.

Here's my prediction -

I agree that the industry, in time, will settle on a preferred lossless format.

Consumers will probably never care about audio quality as much as video.

There will always be a place for FLAC and similar open source formats.

The audiophile market will always be niche.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

spring3r:
Like you, I use a good quality mini jack to RCA / phono cable (Chord) to send audio from a source device to integrated amp (Rotel / Arcam).

For information on FLAC visit: http://flac.sourceforge.net/

As for losing audio quality - Let's start with lossy vs lossless formats. If you are playing a lossy format from your 3Gs (e.g. MP3) the quality will be much lower than that of a lossless format (FLAC or Apple Lossless).

Explanation - Lossy formats are compressed to render the files smaller and thus more portable. Think of image files. Each time a JPG file is edited and saved it gets smaller (and therefore loses image data). This is because it is compressed each time it is saved.

The difference is huge, especially when audio is listened to through a good quality amp and speakers, so you might want to consider the Apple lossless format as you already own a 3Gs (and if top quality audio is important to you - I guess that it is as you're posting on the WHFSV forum).

[EDITED BY MODS - house rules]

Essentially what it comes down to is the 'proprietory vs open source' debate. I am a proponent of open source which means that I want to encode and store my music in formats that are available for use by all manufacturers.

Hope that this helps...

Connecting an iPhone or similar to your amp via a good quality mini jack (analogue) would mean said iPhone or similar's own DAC would be utilised. Therefore, good quality mp3 or FLAC would render virtually the same quality. I agree that lossless improves your sound in what I call a proper system from mp3 files (most people know what I use) but the difference isn't huge. It's noticeable and because of how cheap storage is and that I buy CDs and not downloads, mp3 just isn't needed by me.

 

[Anonymous]

Interesting.

I have found that FLAC files sound very good indeed when using a reasonable quality integrated amp (Arcam A85 or Rotel RA-02, so not massively expensive) with reasonable speakers (B&W CDM-1NT, or bizarely enough, QLN QuBiC 111 - acquired for nothing).

... and that's just using a sound card.

I would love to see articles about making the most of the digital source (USB DAC's, etc.) in WHFSV.

I bought most of my hardware back in 2002 when I had no wife, no son, and more money. I even bought Nordost Red Dawn 2 speaker cable back then.

Using any file format that makes a compromise in audio quality is like taking a step backwards, surely?

 

[Gerrardasnails]

yiannis550:It is huge, I double on that. I have a winmo smart phone with Core Player (supports flac) When I connect my phone to my car (which has awesome audio system) if I play MP3 even at high rates (232kb) it has some noise. When I play flac the sound is richer and clean.

A couple of things; why use 232kbps mp3s when you can go up to 320kbps? Also, I've been in some very nice cars and heard some top systems - my brother-in-law has a top Bose stereo in his RS4 - and none compare to even a decent home stereo system. Therefore, again, mp3 or FLAC would make minimal difference.

 

[Anonymous]

I have found the difference in quality between lossy and lossless format to be significant even in the absence of external DACs.