Starting from a blank slate (...sort of)

[admin_exported]

Current infrastructure:-
SFF PC running Vortexbox, hosting Squeezecenter with FLAC files.
Wired ethernet to Squeezebox receivers.

One room up and running. Now the main room is set up with the above infrastructure, I'm on the look out for Amp, Speakers and DAC.

Sadly finances will not stretch to going "big-bang" and buying all 3 at once, it will have to be 1 item at once. Starting with Amp.
As a temporary measure I will borrow a Beresford DAC and Quad 11l2 speakers, but I dont want these items to over influence my choice of Amp.

Price wise, I'm looking at 600-900gbp for the AMP.
My current thinking is to try out:-

Creek EVO2 (with a view to aiming for EPOS speakers)
Arcam A28 (with a view to aiming for ProAc Studio 110, Neat motive3)
Naim 5i (with a view to aiming for Neat Motive3, EB1, Rega RS1)
Exposure 2010s2 (not sure what speakers to aim for)

Its been a long long time since I listened to a Cyrus Amp, so I will probably not audition one unless the above amps do nothing for me.

Are there any alternatives in my price range that will gel with my listening tastes:-
20% Classical
30% Rock/POP (Bowie to Pink Floyd, U2 to Bruce Springsteen)
30% Folk (especially female vocal (Eddie Reader, Julie Fowlis, Karine Polwart etc)
20% Soft Jazz (inc Melody Gardot)

Finally, are there any alternative speakers I should add to the list. Or should I scrap this plan and start with Speakers?

This is a daunting (but exciting) challenge, that I want to live with for a long while, so any advice would be muchly appreciated.
As for a DAC, I'm trusting I can leave that till last.

Best

Serenity

 

[the record spot]

For that money, you might look to add the Harman Kardon HK990 amplifier to your list. Superb and not runs the Leema Pulse (version 2) close. Heeard it earlier this year and it was very impressive. Only slight downside for some people will be the build and a weird concept for a volume control!

 

[Anonymous]

Many thanks TRS, I'll add them to the list.

I've arranged an Exposure demo, any advice on speakers?

Ta

S

 

[the record spot]

Depends what you're looking for really - floorstanders, standmounts, subs...must admit, were it me starting off from scratch at that budget, I'd be checking out the active speaker market too. Acoustic Energy (AE22 Active), Genelec (8030A or 8040A) and further down the scale Yamaha's HS80 and Tannoy's latest Reveals around the £450 mark would all be on the shortlist.

 

[Anonymous]

Just to clarify, active speakers do not need external amplifiers as they're built in. So, if you do buy an amplifier, you should only look at passive speakers.

Fortunately, that's no bad thing as the range of passive speakers is huge, whereas that for active is tiny and still largely restricted to the pro or computer desktop markets.

I'd also include Densen in your amplifier search. They're a bit like Naim in presentation, but slightly more forgiving of poor quality source material and have a lifetime warranty.

I'd add the Dynaudio Focus and the Sonus Faber Liuto to your list of speakers to audition. Both work well with Naim and Densen.

 

[the record spot]

And just to further clarify, there are clear advantages to both.

With actives you have some great brands that are usually overlooked and typically underrated by the majority of traditional hifi users. Having heard the Yamahas and the Genelecs this year, I can say with some confidence that the performance of both are easily the equal and arguably the better of the passive/amp option.

Genelec's 8030A actives put out a wonderfully balanced sound with a clean but not piercing treble, lovely midrange and a weighty bottom end. This from a box around 12" high. Having heard it a couple of times this year, it sounds more like a domestic speaker than an studio monitor. Build is excellent and the 8030A is around £800 or so. The 8040A is around £1100 so a bit over your budget, but performance is superb again.

For separates, you have a pile of options and I wouldn't worry too much about the idea that there's a supposedly "limited" selection of active speakers out there. Adam, KRK, Mackie, Yamaha, Tannoy, Acoustic Energy, Dynaudio, Genelec, Wharfedale and a few others should be enough to get you going with while the market for actives is through the ceiling.

 

[Anonymous]

the record spot:And just to further clarify, there are clear advantages to both.
With actives you have some great brands that are usually overlooked and typically underrated by the majority of traditional hifi users. Having heard the Yamahas and the Genelecs this year, I can say with some confidence that the performance of both are easily the equal and arguably the better of the passive/amp option.

Genelec's 8030A actives put out a wonderfully balanced sound with a clean but not piercing treble, lovely midrange and a weighty bottom end. This from a box around 12" high. Having heard it a couple of times this year, it sounds more like a domestic speaker than an studio monitor. Build is excellent and the 8030A is around £800 or so. The 8040A is around £1100 so a bit over your budget, but performance is superb again.

For separates, you have a pile of options and I wouldn't worry too much about the idea that there's a supposedly "limited" selection of active speakers out there. Adam, KRK, Mackie, Yamaha, Tannoy, Acoustic Energy, Dynaudio, Genelec, Wharfedale and a few others should be enough to get you going with while the market for actives is through the ceiling.Prove it. It's a limited market for HiFi, whether you like it or not. And, if you consider the market outside the UK, it's probably even smaller.

Also, having heard your beloved Genelecs against my own traditional amp/speaker combination they weren't even close: nowhere near as good. Same can be said for KRK - a friend of mine who had KRK listened once to my system, sold them and went down the amplifier/passive root. His source is an LP12, and he still can't believe how good his system now sounds.

The majority of actives are not intended for HiFi use and can be difficult listens - hard, lacking in bass etc etc. Certainly Dynaudio, Linn, ATC and others do make the odd active, but there is only a handful, especially at the lower end of the market. Just pick any HiFi shop go in, and do the count. I suggest you'd be lucky to see any active speakers, except perhaps those designed for use with computers.

I'd also point out that this thread and my comments have nothing to do with the supposed benefits of active over passive. I just found it odd that someone would recommend an amp, and when asked what would be good speakers, then recommended actives. Edit: removed final line as a bit harsh.

 

[the record spot]

Edited out.

 

[the record spot]

Dynaudio Active range - currently, 18 models.
Source: http://www.dynaudioacoustics.com/

So, the "odd" model. Patently.

EDIT: Add Yamaha - http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/music-production/speakers/

 

[Anonymous]

RS, I think you need help, you're clearly in denial! You have no idea which speakers I auditioned, though you can be sure, unlike some, I only post about equipment I have actually heard. Trying to prove there are as many actives as passives is a) obsessive and b) pointless. Just check the listings in the mag if you want to find the truth.

Finally, if you're so smitten with the Genelecs why not sell your existing setup and buy them? Go on, you know it makes sense

.

 

[the record spot]

Tarquinh:
RS, I think you need help, you're clearly in denial!

Oh no, not at all, quite the opposite in fact. I suspect you may be though.

Tarquinh:
You have no idea which speakers I auditioned, though you can be sure, unlike some, I only post about equipment I have actually heard.

That's interesting but irrelevant. I think you'd said they were around £500 or you thought they were the 6010s but weren't sure, which puts them in the entry level category. The next model up is the 8020 (or -30) and that's in the £800 bracket. And you made your comments about them sounding as you did. You found them a little lifeless (not the 8030 then and not the -40 either as they're not). And even if you did find the speakers I so highly rate dull, bland or dire it matters not. People hear differently and it might just be your likes are just that. Nice little dig at the end I note. Something else that doesn't matter one jot when you consider the many arrangements separates can be heard in and I'm quite happy suggesting what I do with the usual caveats thereon. Incidentally, you don't typically get "dull" actives by their very nature. Must've been your recordings.

Tarquinh:
Trying to prove there are as many actives as passives is a) obsessive and b) pointless.

Actually, I'm not. I think you were the one who mentioned that Dynaudio, Linn, etc., do the "odd active". I checked, out of interest, and Dynaudio have a range of 18 to choose from. "Odd" to my way of thinking would be less than this figure. Merely illustrating a counterpoint to your less than informed post.

Tarquinh:
Just check the listings in the mag if you want to find the truth.

As Johnny Cash once sang, what is truth? In the context of a magazine centred around domestic enterntainment systems, the "truth" would be a buying guide containing in part speakers predominantly aimed at the domestic market. How many passives are in Sound On Sound's buying guide against actives? Your point is?

By contrast, while not all actives are suitable for the home, some clearly are (whether you care to acknowledge this is irrelevant, the fact remains) and the ones I mention fall into this bracket. That they're not in the Buying Guide would presumably change if the team were sent a set for review and, as we know, AVI and Acoustic Energy have done rather well so obviously the precedent is set.

The view that "if the amp or the speaker breaks, you lose the lot" with actives is one I fail to understand as being greatly different from losing an amp or speaker in a traditional arrangement. Your crossover or tweeter blows or the amp keels over, what're you going to do? Switch on the CDP and watch the track counter tick over?

Tarquinh:
Finally, if you're so smitten with the Genelecs why not sell your existing setup and buy them? Go on, you know it makes sense

.

I have answered this previously, but for your benefit:-

1 - no intention to change over from the present set-up just now; it's cheap, good quality and the speakers cost me £80, which I can afford to lose if the twins accidentally do damage to one of them,
2- if I had £800-odd to spend on speakers (and I do, but refer to 1 again) I'd put that money towards something for my children's future and not my present when I already have good enough kit that does me well enough,
3 - assuming I did change, we live in rented accommodation right now and I have no intention of mounting speakers on the wall, nor - likewise - using standmounts. Floorstanders like the 752s are big solid objects that won't get decked by a low-flying twin. £800/£1100 Genelecs aren't.

4 - I'd get £100 for the Missions (there's been talk of £300, but I've checked periodically and the originals regularly clock in up to £150, but nothing more, maybe a mint Freedom or 753 might, but the 752), maybe £200 for the amp and that leaves around £500 for the Genelecs.
Smitten isn't the word. They are deeply impressive for the money, but by the same token, so is my current arrangement (£680 all-in including servicing for the amp). A new amp might be on the cards if the 717 dies, but that won't be a green light to buy the Genelecs, for financial reasons, it'll likely be another vintage piece.

Lastly, I'm impressed you took the time to reply. And your 'guts' too. I'd be embarrassed to wrongly accuse someone of doing something they hadn't, as you did to me, not apologise for it and still try to hold a discussion with them. Truly, we live and learn. "Sleekit" is what I'd call it.

 

[Anonymous]

RS, are you feeling all right? You've lost me totally. You're making some strange comments and presumptions. Perhaps time to return to the real world?

Anyway, none of this is helping the OP.

Ciao.

 

[the record spot]

Sorry, you're right, I had assumed you had the ability to read, but given your non-comprehension and the fact I just don't care for lying little toerags, I'll wave you on your way with nary a backward glance.

 

[the_dude2]

c'mon guys, make peace, this is helping the OP how?

 

[the record spot]

Couldn't agree more mate, in terms of helping the OP, but some people on this forum, of whom Tarquinh is one, has a hard time seeing the world from anything bar the narrow-field. And the "history" between he and I is one of his own making.

 

[Anonymous]

the record spot:Couldn't agree more mate, in terms of helping the OP, but some people on this forum, of whom Tarquinh is one, has a hard time seeing the world from anything bar the narrow-field. And the "history" between he and I is one of his own making.Sorry mate, you are a fool.

Even if I knew what you were talking about I'd still call you one. Recommending active speakers to go with a powerful amplifier would seem to be on the verge of hifi lunacy, yet you managed to do so then tried avoiding the obvious fact you'd made a mistake by obfuscating.

 

[the record spot]

Ah, I miss out a detail in error (a very minor one as the OP could easily ask for clarification), and you latch on to that rather than have the good grace to be decent about it. Pardon me. Just for you, Tarquin H., I will reiterate and bearing in mind also that the OP hasn't got the amp yet....

==================================================================

Were I to start again from scratch, I'd seriously look at the active speaker option. These are a worthwhile consideration, although more typically found in pro-audio applications, recording studios and the like, some are good candidates in domestic settings being more compatible with home audio speakers sound-wise. Brands include Genelec, Adam Audio, Dynaudio, KRK, Genelec, Mackie, Genelec and (just to really brass off Tarquinh) Genelec.

They combine the amp within the speaker housing, utilising separate amplifiers to the tweeter and bass driver independently and thus dispensing with the need for separate amplification as per traditional separates.

For your budget, I'd shortlist Genelec's magnificent (IMO) 8030A, which is around £850, but can be had for less if you shop around, as well as Acoustic Energy's superb AE22 Actives which have a more distinctive styling that may be a matter of taste. Personally, I think they look the part with their bold design. Performance of the ones I've heard is superb by and large. Slightly more expensive would be AVI's ADM9.1 (250w for the bass and 90w for the treble in this one) and Genelec's superb 8040A (90w per driver) around £1100. The AVI speaker also provides an onboard DAC in addition to the amplification.

Please note, in the pro-audio field, actives are often priced per speaker, as opposed to per pair, so do check ahead of buying.

=================================================================

Earlier content edited out.

 

[Anonymous]

Crikey chaps, it's only a stereo. FWIW to the OP, both RS and Tarquinh are worth listening to (when they're not arguing

)

 

[Messiah]

Serenity:
I'm on the look out for Amp, Speakers and DAC.

As no-one else has mentioned them, probably because I would, then you answer lies with the AVI ADM 9.1s.

An all-in-one solution for a bit more than your budget for just the amp. You would need some decent stands as well but I doubt you could better them for the money.

No doubt others may say they are bass shy and whilst I don't believe this to be the case I do prefer the sound with a sub.

If nothing else I would at least try to audition* them as they are superb.

* WARNING - Auditioning them may lead to a purchase. If so you may feel duty bound to 'bang the drum' about how impressive they are because you want others to realise this and you may face abuse for being an Ash/AVI acolyte

 

[chebby]

the record spot:... some people on this forum, of whom Tarquinh is one, has a hard time seeing the world from anything bar the narrow-field.

From someone with a signature system that perfectly embodies the description... 'legacy hifi'.

It all went a bit 'Pete Tong' after Tarquin mentioned Naim

(And he wasn't even recommending them!)

From the OP's list I would go with the Naim and then try out the EB1s. (I have not heard the EB1s, but plenty of NaimUniti users report them being a good pairing.The November issue of WHF - in the 'Ultimate System Builder' section - lists them as 'perfect partners' for the Naim Nait 5i/CD5i.)

 

[Anonymous]

Messiah:Serenity:
I'm on the look out for Amp, Speakers and DAC.

As no-one else has mentioned them, probably because I would, then you answer lies with the AVI ADM 9.1s.

An all-in-one solution for a bit more than your budget for just the amp. You would need some decent stands as well but I doubt you could better them for the money.

No doubt others may say they are bass shy and whilst I don't believe this to be the case I do prefer the sound with a sub.

If nothing else I would at least try to audition* them as they are superb.

* WARNING - Auditioning them may lead to a purchase. If so you may feel duty bound to 'bang the drum' about how impressive they are because you want others to realise this and you may face abuse for being an Ash/AVI acolyte

I agree with Messiah. ADM 9.1's have all you need in one package. You still have the ability to connect an additional optical and coax into the inbuilt DAC if you need other inputs. Just bought some myself and am blown away by them.

 

[the record spot]

chebby:
the record spot:... some people on this forum, of whom Tarquinh is one, has a hard time seeing the world from anything bar the narrow-field.
From someone with a signature system that perfectly embodies the description... 'legacy hifi'.

And a fine example at work of someone not reading the whole signature to further their point, or doth mine eyes deceive me with the AE, iTunes and laptop currently playing...!

And I think I give due credence to other POVs or approaches all things considered (hence the computer based and pro-audio conversions of the past year), no?

 

[chebby]

You have a laptop* and an AE and you play some iTunes. Woot!

Hardly a 'conversion'. (Been doing that with my hopelessly 'foo' and 'underpowered' system for a couple of years now.)

*That won't endear you to the cool kids. It's gotta be a Mac.

 

[the record spot]

Mac-schmack, HP'll do for me well enough. And cool kids my tartan ass; 6 opinions on the AVI loveboy site doesn't cut it.

 

[Anonymous]

Oh deary me!

I go away for a couple of weeks, and I come back to see I was instrumental in starting WW3.

I hope by now the dust has settled and that all necessary "kissing and making up" has taken place.

Thanks to all contributors.

For back ground, I did originally consider the "Active speaker" option. My feeling is that even though one may get a high class sound for a low-ish cost, I'd have a feeling of frustration of not being able to tinker or tweak, add a box here, a new lead there, etc. So for me, at this point in time its the old technology of separates.

To bring you up to speed (bearing in mind this is my uneducated, unscientific, un- HiFi speak findings), I've ruled out Arcam. I didn't nod off but I kept wanting to go over and either turn something or push something or check it was all connected. To sum up - "something was missing"
Cyrus was a pleasant surprise. It certainly got my attention, and is not something I can honestly rule out.
Exposure - didn't expect too much, but to be honest, it was the only one I came away from thinking "Bl**dy he*l" that was good.
Anyway, next stop is Creek and then Naim.

Chebby - I guess the only way to try Naim & EB1 is to buy the EB1's, then when they arrive, try to arrange a home demo of a Naim.

Apologies for bringing this thread back on track an I hope it does not open any more cans of worms, but if nothing else it may be useful for anyone else in the same boat as myself.

Until next time

Serenity