Spendor SA1, Marantz and upgradophobia

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My audio system currently consists of Spendor SA1 speakers, an Arcam CD192 cd player and a Marantz PM7003 integrated amp. It's clear to see which component needs upgrading, doesn't it?

Except that I seem to have a case of reversed upgraditis. I have the current system for about a year now, and the intention has always been that I would replace the Marantz with an amplifier that would do more justice to the speakers. But over the last year, I have grown to love my current setup to such an extent that I fear change...

There is only one complaint that makes me want to upgrade: the current system lacks depth of detail. My HT system is based around an Arcam AVR250 and Kef iQ7s, and that system is much more revealing when it comes to details and soundstage. But the arcam/kef combo is just a tad too bright for easy listening. Great for critical listening, though, especially with the Rega DAC that will soon enter the house.

So I have been looking around for a new amp, either power or integrated. But so far, no amp I have heard can match the pleasure/easy listening that the Marantz gives me. I listen to anything except R&B/dance music, which does not make things easier. And anything is really anything, from classical (chamber music more than orchestral) to heavy rock (Deep Purple, Porcupine Tree) and from jazz (Bill Evans, Yellowjackets) to folk (Capercaillie, Miriam Stockley).

Here is what I have heard so far:

Primare (I30): great, expansive soundstage. Little fatiguing for me though
Exposure (3010s2): way too forward/bright. Was almost painful to listen to
Rega (Elicit): great sound. Amp seemed underpowered though, piano sounds had no attack at all (maybe too smooth?)
Creek (Destiny): very balanced, detailed. dull sound though, completely lifeless

Most on this forum seem to recommend Naim with Spendor, however I have not been able to find a Naim dealer in my area. Other usual suspects still on my list are Arcam FMJ series and (of course) Marantz premium, maybe Pearl or PM11. Haven't been able to arrange demos yet. So, am I looking for a holy grail here, or am I simply focusing on the wrong brands? I would love to hear other recommendations. Budget is up to €1500
 
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Anonymous

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Your system is unbalanced. Source and loudspeakers are at a higher level than your amp.

Among the listed amps, my choice would go for Primare i30 and Creek Destiny 2. However, if you don't care about the drawbacks of your PM7003 (weak dynamics and slow bass timing), you should listen to Marantz PM-15S2. It has the same qualifies of its younger brother with better dynamics and deeper, more controled bass.

I'm suprised with your impressions with regard to i30. It's not a perfect amp, but it doesn't sound fatiguing for sure. Morever, if you find Primare a fatiguing amp, Naim is not the amp to go for. It's not the sweetest amp in the market certainly.

Some amps which defintely you will enjoy are: Accuphase E-213 (Mosfet/A-B), Accuphase E-250 (BJT/A-B), Luxman L-550AII (BJT/Class A), Luxman L-505u (BJT/A-B) and Moon i3.3 (A-B). I think all of them are warm enough for you taste, but unfortunately they are out of your budget.
 
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Anonymous

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Just one last comment: I don't think Marantz Pearl is a huge step up from PM-15S2. If you decide to get a higher grade Marantz's amp, you will be better off with PM-11S2.
 

Bodfish

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With that budget see if you can find a used/ex-dem Sugden A21SE or alternatively their A21al which you might be able to get new.
 
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the record spot

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Alternatively, rather than just consider the 7003 as having "weak dynamics and slow bass timing" (presumably, this means the basslines are all over the place, which must be an interesting experience listening to your CDs!), it's doing everything rather well and not drawing on the weak points you're perceiving in the other amps you've tried.

The 7003 is a decent amp, perhaps you should try some speakers that will bring out more of the characteristics you're looking for. Either that or scour Ebay (or the used offers in the Bada Marketplace, or Mountain Snow sites from various dealers) and find an amp that'll deliver what you're after.
 

WishTree

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Audio Maniac said:
Just one last comment: I don't think Marantz Pearl is a huge step up from PM-15S2. If you decide to get a higher grade Marantz's amp, you will be better off with PM-11S2.

I used to have a PM-11S1 and I guess the sound character is identical to PM-11S2. Though this amp is very detailed but it also moves quickly into analytical area. Yes, it could be easy to listen to but it is much less involving. After all the trials, I did with Marantz range PM-15 or Pearl is the best, IMO.
 
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Anonymous

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Yes, their sound character is quite similar.

Concerning the topic creator, as he's happy with Marantz 7XXX, PM-15S2 shall satisfay him.

WishTree said:
Audio Maniac said:
Just one last comment: I don't think Marantz Pearl is a huge step up from PM-15S2. If you decide to get a higher grade Marantz's amp, you will be better off with PM-11S2.

I used to have a PM-11S1 and I guess the sound character is identical to PM-11S2. Though this amp is very detailed but it also moves quickly into analytical area. Yes, it could be easy to listen to but it is much less involving. After all the trials, I did with Marantz range PM-15 or Pearl is the best, IMO.
 
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Anonymous

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Yes, you are right. Spendor SA1 are hevy load loudspeakers (85db of sensivity) and the current amp is not suitable (low instant output current capacity).

By replacing them by easier drive models there's the possibility of getting a more vivid sound. On other hand, SA1s have awesome qualities. A purchase of equally good easier drive loudspeakers means a further loss of money when selling the SA1s. A pair of SA1 is much more expensive than PM-7003. Because of that, If I were the guy, I would replace the amp instead. I do believe a higher grade amp will bring better results. There's nothing wrong with the Spenders besides their low sensitivity.

the record spot said:
Alternatively, rather than just consider the 7003 as having "weak dynamics and slow bass timing" (presumably, this means the basslines are all over the place, which must be an interesting experience listening to your CDs!), it's doing everything rather well and not drawing on the weak points you're perceiving in the other amps you've tried.

The 7003 is a decent amp, perhaps you should try some speakers that will bring out more of the characteristics you're looking for. Either that or scour Ebay (or the used offers in the Bada Marketplace, or Mountain Snow sites from various dealers) and find an amp that'll deliver what you're after.
 

Bodfish

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Audio Maniac said:
Yes, you are right. Spendor SA1 are hevy load loudspeakers (85db of sensivity) and the current amp is not suitable.

The Spendor's are (relatively) insensitive (85db) but they are not a heavy load (nominal 8ohm impedence, 6 ohm minimum).
 

FennerMachine

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Worth trying Cyrus amps if you can.

I use pre / power & the SA1’s sound great.

Not fatiguing and very detailed.

An integrated should do but obviously audition first!
 
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Anonymous

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Thanks for the responses. No, I'm not going to replace my speakers unless I really have to :)

Will have a look at Sugden and Cyrus, and some of the other brands mentioned. If it turns out that I can't achieve what I want within my budget, I'll just save some more and start looking again later. I'm not in a hurry, was just very surprised that I would prefer a 400-euro amp to several amps costing near 2000...

As for the 7003's character, I've never considered it slow (or I don't understand what it means). Obviously it lacks bottom-end control (other amps produce a deeper and more detailed bass), but the bass is never woolly or lacking in attack.
 
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Anonymous

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Tremon,

I wasn't "talking" in absolut terms. Your PM7003 is a nice sub 500 pounds amp but side by side with a truly well designed high-end amp it does show its drawbacks.

I know Marantz's entry level amps quite well. For my liking, their mid-bass an d bass line are slow, i.e., lack control and attack. Things get worse because of your loadspeakers. Spendor SA1 are not for budget amps. Althought their 8 ohms impedance, they require high instant current to shine.

Other problem as regards PM7003 is its high frequencies. I find them too sweet (over-polited).
 
tremon said:
My audio system currently consists of Spendor SA1 speakers, an Arcam CD192 cd player and a Marantz PM7003 integrated amp. It's clear to see which component needs upgrading, doesn't it?

Except that I seem to have a case of reversed upgraditis. I have the current system for about a year now, and the intention has always been that I would replace the Marantz with an amplifier that would do more justice to the speakers. But over the last year, I have grown to love my current setup to such an extent that I fear change...

There is only one complaint that makes me want to upgrade: the current system lacks depth of detail. My HT system is based around an Arcam AVR250 and Kef iQ7s, and that system is much more revealing when it comes to details and soundstage. But the arcam/kef combo is just a tad too bright for easy listening. Great for critical listening, though, especially with the Rega DAC that will soon enter the house.

So I have been looking around for a new amp, either power or integrated. But so far, no amp I have heard can match the pleasure/easy listening that the Marantz gives me. I listen to anything except R&B/dance music, which does not make things easier. And anything is really anything, from classical (chamber music more than orchestral) to heavy rock (Deep Purple, Porcupine Tree) and from jazz (Bill Evans, Yellowjackets) to folk (Capercaillie, Miriam Stockley).

Here is what I have heard so far:

Primare (I30): great, expansive soundstage. Little fatiguing for me though
Exposure (3010s2): way too forward/bright. Was almost painful to listen to
Rega (Elicit): great sound. Amp seemed underpowered though, piano sounds had no attack at all (maybe too smooth?)
Creek (Destiny): very balanced, detailed. dull sound though, completely lifeless

Most on this forum seem to recommend Naim with Spendor, however I have not been able to find a Naim dealer in my area. Other usual suspects still on my list are Arcam FMJ series and (of course) Marantz premium, maybe Pearl or PM11. Haven't been able to arrange demos yet. So, am I looking for a holy grail here, or am I simply focusing on the wrong brands? I would love to hear other recommendations. Budget is up to €1500

I know how you feel: I spent the best part of two years fluffing over amp upgrade.

I think Arcam comes closest to the sound you're looking for. Also the Leema Pulse may be the amp to suit your taste: It has a lovely biting, attacking presentation, allied to the fabulous organic sound often associated with Arcam.

I've heard (twice) the Leema with SA-1s and it's immensely revealing and controlled.
 

Singslinger

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I would recommend trying the NAD C165/275BEE pre-power combo. There's 150WPC on tap and plenty of detail on offer. If this exceeds your budget, then try the NAD C375BEE integrated, which also pumps out 150WPC.

I've heard the SA1s driven by the pre-power setup and found the results very satisfying.
 
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Anonymous

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Add Leema and NAD to my audition list. Check :) - will be hard to find though, there are only two registered (Leema) dealers in the country...

So far I've only been able to audition a Sugden Mystro, and I must say I was very impressed. Indeed its character is very much like the Marantz, but with vastly improved detail and control. Also had one of the worst customer experiences there, so will have to find another shop should I choose to go with Sugden. I'm holding off because of the Mystro's lack of connectivity. It only has 3 line inputs (no pre-out either) which is too few if I ever want to use this set as a zone2 from the living room. The A21 would lack the power to sufficiently drive these speakers, I've been told.

To make matters more interesting, I've been offered an ex-demo Densen B310 for 1200. I haven't been able to have a good listen yet, but initial impression was that it ticks the same boxes the Primare did. Since it's a power amp only, here's hoping that it will fit into my system without making the Marantz (as pre) stand out like a sore thumb.

Audio Maniac said:
Other problem as regards PM7003 is its high frequencies. I find them too sweet (over-polited).
I guess this is a big part of why I like them. Meh. To each his own
smiley-laughing.gif
 
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Anonymous

Guest
For those of you still interested, I've settled on the Densen B-310 power amp. That means my system is now even more out of balance than before, but none of the amps I have heard (including Arcam and Primare power amps) displayed the same control and grip over the Spendors. I figured I would be better off spending my money on a new component instead of getting a better integrated and then end up using only half of it.

Having heard the Densen at the end of multiple sets (Densen, Rega, and my own Marantz) I'm confident that I will have little trouble finding a matching preamp when budget allows. Again, thanks to all for the suggestions. Based on sound character, I will keep Leema, Moon and Rega on my shortlist for a later preamp.
 

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