Speaker upgrade suggestions...

[Chewy]

I currently have a 7.1 set of Monitor Audio RS speakers as per my sig.

I know this is a 'finger in the air' type question, but given the law of diminishing return, how much would I likely have to spend on a speaker upgrade to get an approx 50%+ increase in sound quality?

What speakers would you suggest for that spend level? (My room is 18ft x 11ft, and the sides and rears have to be wall mountable, so there are restrictions in terms of what size/type of speakers it will take).

Thanks in advance!

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Gary

from your sig i`m assuming your use is for movies maybe a little more than for music. If so may I suggest that you have a demonstration of loud speakers that are designed for movie listening especially but also excellent for music as well.

I`m talking about MK`s and especially the MK THX 950`s which use the pro tweeters in them, every demonstration we do of this setup has so far has resulted in a sale so they can`t be too bad can they.

Using your pioneer lx83 as well should be a very good combination, also if your rear positioning can accomodate tri-poles i`d recommend you listen to the M4T`s rather than the 95t`s, lovely detailing and half the price.

Couple these to a MK 1250 THX sub is a gem of a system or if budget allows a MX350 THX

All are available in in the new satin black colour as well as the piano gloss (not recommended for cinema rooms though).

I really would recommend having a demonstration before commiting to a HIFI designed loudspeaker.

A lot also depends on your room as well Gary so take that into consideration, room acoustics play a massive part in what you eventually hear in any audio setup so must be considered before making a final decision.

cheers and hope that helps you a little

Al

 

[Chewy]

Hi Al,

Yep, probably 90/10 in favour of movies, music listening is definately secondary. I hadn't considered M&K to be honest, so thanks for pointing them out.

And you feel they would give me a 50% uplift over the MA's?

(PS - its Gareth by the way!

)

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Gareth

would I think you`d get a 50% improvment of your MA`s, thats a tough question but i`ll answer as honestly as I can.

Or if you want i`ll give you some customers details who have just gone from MA`s to MK`s

My perception of any HIFI speaker is that they are good for what they are designed for, listening to hifi audio. A speaker system which is a dedicated sub sat system and developed to be geared towards producing dynamics, positioning and detail such as the MK`s should always offer more for movie preference use.

Now whether or not you can see that as a 50% improvement is only down to you as its your room they`re going to be used in and your ears that will be listening to them.

Its only a suggestion but if possible you demo some mk`s that have been set up correclty, in a "proper room" with correction and see for yourself if you think that its worth the change.

its my opinion that the MK`s will win hands down but I would say that because I sell them, the question you need to ask is why do I prefer to sell MK`s rather than any other loudspeaker for a cinema room enviroment.

As yet I have yet to hear any other speaker at the MK price point to equal them, if I had i`d have them here trust me.

I`ve haven`t heard of anyone who has upgraded to MK`s to revert back to something else, you can`t really say that of a lot of the other manufacturers out there, so it ought to say something.

And if they`re good enough for the likes of George Lucas, Sony, Skywalker Ranch, Dolby Labs and the rest well who knows I could well be right in my thinking

cheers Al

 

[Chewy]

Thanks Al,

Your explanation certainly puts the M&K speakers on my audition list! (Especially given no one has recommedned anything else!)

I like the idea of the tripoles. I have always thought that, as good as my RSFX surrounds are, its always been a compromise between the bipole and dipole settings; dipole is nice and diffuse, but reduces grip on the surround effects, whilst bipole produces the opposite, lots of grip and steering but a reduction in duiffusion and sound field. Given that the tripoles incorporate both, this seems a good solution.

A few questions if I may:

Why do you recommend the M4T's over the SUR95T's, aren't they from a 'lesser' package with differently matched drivers?

How do M&K recommend that the SUR95T speakers are mounted? Presumably I'd need to cost in for decent stands for the fronts (I've never had stand mount speakers before!)? Also the centre speaker sits below my PJ screen, so there isn't a lot of room, is it acceptable to have that speaker on its side (on a stand obviously)?

I also like the look of the 150 THX system too, but would this be inappropriate for my room size?

 

[Anonymous]

gdavies09031977:

Thanks Al,

Your explanation certainly puts the M&K speakers on my audition list! (Especially given no one has recommedned anything else!)

I like the idea of the tripoles. I have always thought that, as good as my RSFX surrounds are, its always been a compromise between the bipole and dipole settings; dipole is nice and diffuse, but reduces grip on the surround effects, whilst bipole produces the opposite, lots of grip and steering but a reduction in duiffusion and sound field. Given that the tripoles incorporate both, this seems a good solution.

A few questions if I may:

Why do you recommend the M4T's over the SUR95T's, aren't they from a 'lesser' package with differently matched drivers?

How do M&K recommend that the SUR95T speakers are mounted? Presumably I'd need to cost in for decent stands for the fronts (I've never had stand mount speakers before!)? Also the centre speaker sits below my PJ screen, so there isn't a lot of room, is it acceptable to have that speaker on its side (on a stand obviously)?

I also like the look of the 150 THX system too, but would this be inappropriate for my room size?

Hi Gareth

Im sure Al will repond again shortly but I would just like to say that depending on the model you might buy the centre speaker should not be on its side because of the way M&K speakers are designed,especially the 150's

I have my centre speaker under my PJ screen on a stand, another thing to consider is perspective

If you refer to have the speakers positioned into the room rather than against the wall you might find that the speaker cabinet shadows onto the PJ screen.

I have my front 3 slightly into the room in an arc and had to adjust quite a bit to keep the top of the cabinet from showing on the bottom of the PJ screen

Perhaps you could post the room size,and also if it is a dedicated room, this might help Al to recommend the correct package to room size

Regards

Andy

 

[Chewy]

Hi lesmor,

Thanks for your reply, my room size is in my first post, its 18 ft x 11ft. Its not a dedicated cinema room unfortunately, and is used as a lounge.

Left and right speakers won't be a problem I don't think, as I currently have full floor standers either side of the screen without problems. It is the centre speaker that concerns me. My screen comes to just above my centre speaker, the top of which is about 670mm from the floor to the top of the speaker (the speaker itself is 185mm high).

The S-150 is 318mm high according to the specs sheet, and the LCR950 is 408mm high, which would then mean a stand of 350mm or 260mm respectively fi they are kept upright. Fairly small! Is your S-150 centre channel this low down? What stand do you have it on.

Gareth

 

[Frank Harvey]

Hi Gareth

ATC loudspeakers for also used for mixing/mastering in studios, which is where this British company started out. They have quite a wide range of passive and active loudspeakers, all with one aim - to produce the most accurate reproduction possible. They will supply any of their paired loudspeakers as singles, so you have a choice between a 'matching' centre and an identical centre. They're all sealed cabinets (like studio sub/sat systems), so placement isn't an issue.

One thing to mention about surrounds. The type of rear speaker is purely preferential. Dipole/tripole speakers can be used to spread sound, but studios, when mastering movie soundtracks, use direct firing (monopole) loudspeakers, which are the same as the front L/C/R. They use these to accurately place sound effects, which can be recreated at home when using monopole loudspeakers. With a 7.1 system, I prefer monopole all round - usually, dipole is recommended at the side and monopole at the rear, but I've never understood this as sounds passing through the back speakers will sound different. I currently use a 'diffused' rear 7.1 set up, but I'm looking to move to a completely monopole set up as it will sound more accurate.

While I agree hi-fi and AV speakers sound different as it's something I've always advocated, but there have been some remarkable improvements in speakers recently from the likes of KEf and ProAc, and I'm sure we're about to see oypthers follow suit. I now feel that products from ATC and KEF possess certain qualities as those of AV speakers. ATC are just so accurate and neutral, and KEF's UniQ driver has such a wide dispersion, that these manufacturers produce the best hi-fi designed loudspeakers that work extremely well with AV. The ATC's do take a bit of driving (although your 82 will be up to it), but will reward you with a far more accurate reproduction than your current set up. you could take a look at the SCM11's all round, with either the C1or C4 (recommended) subwoofer. What you use all round just depends how accurate you want your system.

I've not done direct comparisons yet, but KEF's new Q series is so good that I think they'll be competing with far more expensive loudspeakers when it comes to AV systems. their single point UniQ driver is perfect for anyone who are in close proximity to the speakers - the close you are to a conventional loudspeaker, the more your aware of the bass and treble coming from two different points. This also helps give better image placement - when the full frequency spectrum is coming from one point rather than two, the imaging and dispersion abilities of the loudspeaker ar greatly improved. You could take a look at the Q100's or the Q300's, again, with the same speaker as a centre. As for subs, if you can afford the MX350 or ATC C4sub, the KEF Reference 208 is worth a look - a stunningly clean sounding sub that reaches deeper than the other two if I recall correctly. Obviously, you can also look at other manufacturers subs too if you felt the 298 was too big.

If this isn't tempting enough, there are new products on the horizon from Ken Kreisel, who is currently launching his new company in the US, initially supplying products to studios, with products to follow in the UK next year. As the founder an designer of M&K, he's entering the market with all new designs which should shake up the domestic AV market.

One hi-fi loudspeaker manufacturer is currently working on some dedicated AV speakers at the moment, which I'm extremely interested in - I'll bring news of that when the time is right, as it's early stages yet.

Obviously, your best bet is to arrange a few demos, and all the better if you can compare directly with your speaker package so you can easily, appreciate the benefits.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Gareth

that is a long email and i`ll be typing for hours lol, i`ll get it touch with you asap

cheers Al

 

[Chewy]

Cheers Al, I'll wait to hear.

Hi David,

Thanks for the suggestions. Do you think the models you have suggested would achieve the 50%+ improvement I am looking for over my current MA's (the Q300's price in particular wouldn't suggest so - I would have thought I would need to step up to the XQ range)? Which would be your pick of the bunch?

Also, can the Q300's and the SMC11's both be wall mounted? All four surrounds need to be wall mountable. In place of the Q300's I could use the matching dipole surrounds, but I can't see a similar offering from ATC?

You also mention ProAc, which of theirs would you recommend?

 

[Frank Harvey]

ATC don't do dipole surround as dipoles are designed for domestic use as a neater option, and to recreate the multiple speakers placed down either side of a cinema. Mixing and mastering studios use monopole speakers, so there aren't any 'professionally' produced ones. For many it's a visual choice, but which you prefer is personal preference. Monopoles produce precise soundfield, dipole/triple produce a diffuse soundfield. Dipoles/tripoles need to be clear of rear walls (when placed on the side walls), or clear of side walls (when placed on rear walls) - mobilise can be placed nearer walls or in corners.

The XQ range is also an option, but I'd say they're 'different' to the Q series. The Q series uses technology KEF have brought down from their Concept Blade speakers (which we'll have on demo at our open evening next week). This has pushed the Q series more in line with the XQ as far as quality is concerned, which is quite a feat for a manufacturer to do. Because of this, I do feel they'll bring worthwhile improvements over the RX range - only a demo will tell you if you think it's worthwhile.

KEF have produced dipole surrounds for the Q series, which is an option if you're stuck for space, but as I've mentioned, monopole speakers will give you more accurate placement of effects, regardless of whether they're at the front, back, sides etc. Having the same speaker all round gives a much more seamless soundfield as they're all exactly the same timbre - only your room can alter this.

The KEF and ATC speakers can be wall mounted.

 

[Chewy]

FrankHarveyHiFi:ATC don't do dipole surround as dipoles are designed for domestic use as a neater option, and to recreate the multiple speakers placed down either side of a cinema. Mixing and mastering studios use monopole speakers, so there aren't any 'professionally' produced ones. For many it's a visual choice, but which you prefer is personal preference. Monopoles produce precise soundfield, dipole/triple produce a diffuse soundfield. Dipoles/tripoles need to be clear of rear walls (when placed on the side walls), or clear of side walls (when placed on rear walls) - mobilise can be placed nearer walls or in corners. The XQ range is also an option, but I'd say they're 'different' to the Q series. The Q series uses technology KEF have brought down from their Concept Blade speakers (which we'll have on demo at our open evening next week). This has pushed the Q series more in line with the XQ as far as quality is concerned, which is quite a feat for a manufacturer to do. Because of this, I do feel they'll bring worthwhile improvements over the RX range - only a demo will tell you if you think it's worthwhile. KEF have produced dipole surrounds for the Q series, which is an option if you're stuck for space, but as I've mentioned, monopole speakers will give you more accurate placement of effects, regardless of whether they're at the front, back, sides etc. Having the same speaker all round gives a much more seamless soundfield as they're all exactly the same timbre - only your room can alter this. The KEF and ATC speakers can be wall mounted.

Its not that I am specifically after dipoles, I am more than happy to test out monopoles, it is just being a dual purpose room I have to think about siting the surrounds and rears. I don't have space to put speakers on stands for these channels, so all four have to be wall mounted.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

gdavies09031977:
I currently have a 7.1 set of Monitor Audio RS speakers as per my sig.

I know this is a 'finger in the air' type question, but given the law of diminishing return, how much would I likely have to spend on a speaker upgrade to get an approx 50%+ increase in sound quality?

What speakers would you suggest for that spend level? (My room is 18ft x 11ft, and the sides and rears have to be wall mountable, so there are restrictions in terms of what size/type of speakers it will take).

Thanks in advance!

Obviously quantifying 50% is impossible; I would say you would need to get a pre/power surround amplification and about £10k worth of speakers to think, "wow, that is much better".

 

[MUSICRAFT]

gdavies09031977:
FrankHarveyHiFi:ATC don't do dipole surround as dipoles are designed for domestic use as a neater option, and to recreate the multiple speakers placed down either side of a cinema. Mixing and mastering studios use monopole speakers, so there aren't any 'professionally' produced ones. For many it's a visual choice, but which you prefer is personal preference. Monopoles produce precise soundfield, dipole/triple produce a diffuse soundfield. Dipoles/tripoles need to be clear of rear walls (when placed on the side walls), or clear of side walls (when placed on rear walls) - mobilise can be placed nearer walls or in corners. The XQ range is also an option, but I'd say they're 'different' to the Q series. The Q series uses technology KEF have brought down from their Concept Blade speakers (which we'll have on demo at our open evening next week). This has pushed the Q series more in line with the XQ as far as quality is concerned, which is quite a feat for a manufacturer to do. Because of this, I do feel they'll bring worthwhile improvements over the RX range - only a demo will tell you if you think it's worthwhile. KEF have produced dipole surrounds for the Q series, which is an option if you're stuck for space, but as I've mentioned, monopole speakers will give you more accurate placement of effects, regardless of whether they're at the front, back, sides etc. Having the same speaker all round gives a much more seamless soundfield as they're all exactly the same timbre - only your room can alter this. The KEF and ATC speakers can be wall mounted.

Its not that I am specifically after dipoles, I am more than happy to test out monopoles, it is just being a dual purpose room I have to think about siting the surrounds and rears. I don't have space to put speakers on stands for these channels, so all four have to be wall mounted.

Hi Gareth

I hope you will not mind me responding.

ATC have a range of in and on wall monitors based on their SCM7 and SCM11 models so these are worth considering. The cabinets have a depth of 12.5cm. To tackle distortion and thereby maintain performance levels these monitors also incorporate ATC's massive hand built state of the art professional drive units. Therefore these monitors are capable of offering studio levels of performance for domestic AV use.

On wall monitors prices are -

SCM-7S white (each) RRP £449, black (each) £449

SCM-11S white (each) RRP £503, black (each) £503

In wall monitors prices are -

SCM-7i white (each) RRP £503, black (each) £503

SCM-11i white (each) RRP £571, black (each) £571

If these monitors interest you then depending on your budget i'll suggest you also consider SCM19's (fronts), C3 (centre) and C1(sub), C4 (sub) or if you like the professional look then please also look at SCM0.1/12 (sub). Alternatively SCM40's instead of the SCM19's for fronts.

Btw, i have clients using ATC passive monitors with LX-82's/83's and they are all more then happy with the results. Regardless of the type of soundtrack ATC's low distortion monitors with their (amongst other qualities) clear, uncoloured, neutral, precise and natural presentation will enable the qualities of your components to shine through by enabling them to breathe.

I feel ATC monitors also reproduce the stability and the power of the sound.

Studio Control Monitor by Old School Engineers.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Chewy]

Hi Rick,

Many thanks for the reply, that's good to hear, I had discounted ATC as I couldn't find any mention of lower profile wall mount speakers on their website (can't see them on yours either) - do ATC have another website that shows them?

Infact, after 5 minutes googling I can't see them anywhere? Do you have a link at all?

Your store is only about 10 mins from me, so I may pop out and see you when I'm ready to start demoing.

Gareth

 

[MUSICRAFT]

gdavies09031977:
Hi Rick,

Many thanks for the reply, that's good to hear, I had discounted ATC as I couldn't find any mention of lower profile wall mount speakers on their website (can't see them on yours either) - do ATC have another website that shows them?

Infact, after 5 minutes googling I can't see them anywhere? Do you have a link at all?

Your store is only about 10 mins from me, so I may pop out and see you when I'm ready to start demoing.

Gareth

Hi Gareth

Your welcome.

I have the relevant information available on these ATC in/on wall monitors however i am not sure about posting here. I hope WHF will not mind me suggesting this but (as you've been on the site) please feel free to drop me an email and i'll forward the details across to you. My contact details are also in the bio.

Btw, it is a small world!

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[MUSICRAFT]

ATC have decided not to produce SCM-7i and SCM-11i in wall monitors.

Thanks

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Chewy]

MUSICRAFT:

ATC have decided not to produce SCM-7i and SCM-11i in wall monitors.

Thanks

Rick @ Musicraft

DOH!!!

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi Gareth

Oh well at least SCM-7S and SCM-11S on wall monitors are being produced.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[BenLaw]

Hi Rick

I've just seen these speakers for the first time 'elsewhere' - how long have they been around for? Any idea why ATC are not going with the in wall option - is it just that the on wall will be convenient enough for most?

Ben

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi Ben

The on wall monitors have been available for a while now. Please check your email for the PDF's.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Chewy]

MUSICRAFT:

Hi Gareth

Oh well at least SCM-7S and SCM-11S on wall monitors are being produced.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Sorry Rick, I misunderstood, I thought in your prior post you meant that the 'on walls' weren't being produced either (that'll teach me for skim reading!

. Thats ATC back on the list then!

Have you heard the on-wall speakers in action? If so, how do you rate them (factoring out the fact that you sell them - if you can)?

 

[Chewy]

FrankHarveyHiFi:ATC don't do dipole surround as dipoles are designed for domestic use as a neater option, and to recreate the multiple speakers placed down either side of a cinema. Mixing and mastering studios use monopole speakers, so there aren't any 'professionally' produced ones. For many it's a visual choice, but which you prefer is personal preference. Monopoles produce precise soundfield, dipole/triple produce a diffuse soundfield. Dipoles/tripoles need to be clear of rear walls (when placed on the side walls), or clear of side walls (when placed on rear walls) - mobilise can be placed nearer walls or in corners. The XQ range is also an option, but I'd say they're 'different' to the Q series. The Q series uses technology KEF have brought down from their Concept Blade speakers (which we'll have on demo at our open evening next week). This has pushed the Q series more in line with the XQ as far as quality is concerned, which is quite a feat for a manufacturer to do. Because of this, I do feel they'll bring worthwhile improvements over the RX range - only a demo will tell you if you think it's worthwhile. KEF have produced dipole surrounds for the Q series, which is an option if you're stuck for space, but as I've mentioned, monopole speakers will give you more accurate placement of effects, regardless of whether they're at the front, back, sides etc. Having the same speaker all round gives a much more seamless soundfield as they're all exactly the same timbre - only your room can alter this. The KEF and ATC speakers can be wall mounted.

Hi David,

I've just been reading over an old post (Aug 2008 I think) on this forum, where you are singing the praises of the M&K speakers (750, 950 and 150's), and state that you had these in your own system.

I am aware that you no longer sell them, so that question may be a confilct of interests, but I was wondering if you still recommend them, and think so highly of them. Do you still have them in your own system?

Kind regards,

Gareth