Question for WHF team

[f1only]

FWIW the DVB standard includes Forward Error Correction to help deal with data loss

Which proves that data loss exists. Next!

The whole point of error correction is that transmissions errors are recoverable, i.e. minor errors do not lead to data loss.

Surely an error IS data loss that needs to be recovered ( therefore data loss ) as you pointed out. What you see on your TV is fill in produced by the data correction. Whether this is the right correction applied by the reciever, may be in question, after it gets bombarded with too many inconsistances, it can, in the end, fail.

And when they do lead to data loss, like in max' examples, the consequences are usually catastrophic rather than subtle, like audible bleeps or green/purple squares.

Very true in some cases, this can vary greatly in the strength of the original transmission / signal strength.

So proving Data loss exists.

 

[John Duncan]

Jinx...

 

[007L2Thrill]

With hdcp, the data stream is encrypted to prevent the data from ending up on torrent sites

Yes, and that works really well.

 

[bigboss]

No idea why data loss due to signal being transmitted wirelessly is compared with data transmitted through an HDMI cable here.... :~

 

[Anonymous]

Here's hoping that I understand you correctly...

Surely an error IS data loss that needs to be recovered ( therefore data loss ) as you pointed out.

That's just sophistry because we do not use the same terms. I'm saying: "If data can be fully recovered, no data is lost, so there is no data loss", whereas you're saying "data can get lost and then recovered, but that's still data loss". So what you're calling data loss, I'm calling transmission errors. And neither of us is really wrong...

What you see on your TV is fill in produced by the data correction. Whether this is the right correction applied by the reciever, may be in question

Ok, so now we have left the domain of the ethereal "boogieman in the wire", and we are entering the domain of the error recovery in the receiver/TV. And you are correct, there is no way either of us can prove the other wrong. Well, theoretically, the manufacturer could get such information from the chips inside the device, but that's still impossible for us.

So we're stuck here. I'm saying that subtle variations (like "brighter colours", "sharper edges") cannot occur and that failures are always of the "punch you in the face"-type, whereas you're saying (well, I think you're saying) that certain transmission errors may go unnoticed (and uncorrected) in one cable, while another cable may deliver the signal intact.

So proving Data loss exists.

But why does that need to be proven? Just yank your hdmi cable out of your tv, and you have already proven it. I was responding to JD's implication "we have error correction, ergo we lose data" which is a complete non-sequitur. It's the same as saying "my car has brakes, therefore it is going to crash".

 

[Davo2008]

So.......to answer the OP's original question.....

I have 2 blu ray players. A Denon 2500BT and an Oppo BDP-83. I actually bought the Denon for more money than the Oppo (that'll teach me for buying things when they've just come out!

). I bought the Oppo mainly to watch Region A Blu Rays as it was modded. The Denon was going to be my main player as I really loved it. The fact is though, The Oppo is way better in both picture and sound. I bitstream both and I don't have an engineering degree, nevertheless, it's a fact (you can even ask my wife who also doesn't have an engineering degree). Maybe there SHOULDN'T be a difference, but the definitely IS.

 

[The_Lhc]

No idea why data loss due to signal being transmitted wirelessly is compared with data transmitted through an HDMI cable here.... :~

Because Max didn't make any distinction, he's making a blanket statement that there is never any data loss in a digital signal, regardless of how it's being transmitted.

 

[Anonymous]

No idea why data loss due to signal being transmitted wirelessly is compared with data transmitted through an HDMI cable here.... :~

Because Max didn't make any distinction, he's making a blanket statement that there is never any data loss in a digital signal, regardless of how it's being transmitted.

my point being that digital data transference is so robust that even when travelling hundreds of miles from space through all weathers, wirelessly, it usually remains intact.

yet there are many that seem to believe said data transfer via hdmi cables can suffer loss, doesn't make much sense to me. but then nor does cable/componant burn in, differences between blu-ray players, the validity of mains cables etc, all of which is never proven beyond the word of those that clearly discern these unexplained/improven differences.

sound fishy?

 

[Davo2008]

Presumably Max, you have a £30 Tesco blu ray player that you connect to an old Black and White CRT with 2 pieces of fishing wire? Or am I taking it too far..?

 

[Andrew Everard]

my point being that digital data transference is so robust that even when travelling hundreds of miles from space through all weathers, wirelessly, it usually remains intact.

yet there are many that seem to believe said data transfer via hdmi cables can suffer loss, doesn't make much sense to me. but then nor does cable/componant burn in, differences between blu-ray players, the validity of mains cables etc, all of which is never proven beyond the word of those that clearly discern these unexplained/improven differences.

sound fishy?

Just before you extend Flinn's Theorem of Digital Immutability to 'And another thing: how come cables carry thousands of digital signals tens of thousands of miles under the sea without any signal problems?', I give you Exhibit A

Read more about it here

 

[Deleted member 2457]

So.......to answer the OP's original question.....

I have 2 blu ray players. A Denon 2500BT and an Oppo BDP-83. I actually bought the Denon for more money than the Oppo (that'll teach me for buying things when they've just come out!

). I bought the Oppo mainly to watch Region A Blu Rays as it was modded. The Denon was going to be my main player as I really loved it. The fact is though, The Oppo is way better in both picture and sound. I bitstream both and I don't have an engineering degree, nevertheless, it's a fact (you can even ask my wife who also doesn't have an engineering degree). Maybe there SHOULDN'T be a difference, but the definitely IS.

The best post i have read on blu-ray players for a while.

 

[Andrew Everard]

The best post i have read on blu-ray players for a while.

Just because it didn't mention bidets?

 

[Anonymous]

my point being that digital data transference is so robust that even when travelling hundreds of miles from space through all weathers, wirelessly, it usually remains intact.

yet there are many that seem to believe said data transfer via hdmi cables can suffer loss, doesn't make much sense to me. but then nor does cable/componant burn in, differences between blu-ray players, the validity of mains cables etc, all of which is never proven beyond the word of those that clearly discern these unexplained/improven differences.

sound fishy?

Just before you extend Flinn's Theorem of Digital Immutability to 'And another thing: how come cables carry thousands of digital signals tens of thousands of miles under the sea without any signal problems?', I give you Exhibit A

Read more about it here

that's what i'm saying, digital data loss is extremely rare, so why would a built for purpose hdmi cable suffer from it? and in the case of the likes of the apple tv, (which i assume loses none during it's wireless transfer) where could the data be lost to? and what would cause such loss seeing as the data from space is nearly always intact? so many questions

 

[The_Lhc]

my point being that digital data transference is so robust that even when travelling hundreds of miles from space through all weathers, wirelessly, it usually remains intact.

yet there are many that seem to believe said data transfer via hdmi cables can suffer loss, doesn't make much sense to me. but then nor does cable/componant burn in, differences between blu-ray players, the validity of mains cables etc, all of which is never proven beyond the word of those that clearly discern these unexplained/improven differences.

sound fishy?

Just before you extend Flinn's Theorem of Digital Immutability to 'And another thing: how come cables carry thousands of digital signals tens of thousands of miles under the sea without any signal problems?', I give you Exhibit A

Read more about it here

that's what i'm saying, digital data loss is extremely rare,

I don't think that's what Andrew is saying at all...

 

[Anonymous]

actually i don't think that is what he's saying, i'm sure some elaboration will be forthcoming

 

[Andrew Everard]

that's what i'm saying, digital data loss is extremely rare

Ah, the old 'agreeing by saying the exact opposite' strategy...

where could the data be lost to?

A further dimension, where they're collecting all the data to find out what we're up to – and slowly, but surely, laying their plans against us?

seeing as the data from space is nearly always intact

You've compared the uplink signal with what comes down to the receiving dish, then? Data is lost in all forms of transmission, that's why there's error-correction: it's more a matter of how much redundancy is built into the original signal.

And my point about climate change was relevant: in warmer, more humid air, data is transmitted wirelessly with less efficiency. Again, not sure what that's got to do with the original price of fish, but you brought up this whole wireless red herring.

Back to Alex the Siberian tank mechanic for more explanation of signal transmission, I think...

 

[strapped for cash]

So.......to answer the OP's original question.....

I have 2 blu ray players. A Denon 2500BT and an Oppo BDP-83. I actually bought the Denon for more money than the Oppo (that'll teach me for buying things when they've just come out!

). I bought the Oppo mainly to watch Region A Blu Rays as it was modded. The Denon was going to be my main player as I really loved it. The fact is though, The Oppo is way better in both picture and sound. I bitstream both and I don't have an engineering degree, nevertheless, it's a fact (you can even ask my wife who also doesn't have an engineering degree). Maybe there SHOULDN'T be a difference, but the definitely IS.

The best post i have read on blu-ray players for a while.

It seems remarkably similar to the majority of threads on this topic, at least to my mind...

EDIT: aoplogies, you said "post" rather than "thread." I wasn't suggesting the individual post was unenlightened, rather that the thread hasn't become any more conclusive (though a large number of posts have been added since I last looked).

 

[Anonymous]

i'm not playing anymoreski (

 

[Andrew Everard]

i'm not playing anymoreski (

Two locks in 30 mins? Something of a record, max...