Is anyone else concerned that What Hi Fi doesn't know the difference between a Class D and a digital amp? The D in Class D was just the next letter in the alphabet when it came to naming that amp class. There is no analogue to digital conversion in a Primare class D amplification and for What Hi Fi to say that it's a digital amp is misleading. So hopefully other people have noticed that and haven't taken the review seriously as obviously What Hi Fi clearly knows nothing about amplifiers. Actually What Hi Fi does seem to know one thing about amps, if it's Engineered in England it's good.
Primare I32 a Digital Amp?????????
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I'm somewhat concerned, as someone who's interested in it. The Hifi Choice review is a lot clearer on the differences between the switching modules employed by various amps. Having said that, I suppose WHF were drawing a simple distinction between switching amps and transformer-based 'analogue' ones. Maybe.
I'm more concerned about the review. I've heard the CD22 and I22, the I32's smaller sibling, and I thought they sounded fantastic - far more neutral, confident and powerful than is usually heard for this money. They were also one the best things at the Whittlebury show. Reading WHF's I32 review I don't recognise this sound - and nor, it seems, would the other dozen or so reviewers assembled on Primare's download pages.... including the Gramophone, who described the I32 as 'exemplary'.
That review was written by Andrew Everard.
I'm more concerned about the review. I've heard the CD22 and I22, the I32's smaller sibling, and I thought they sounded fantastic - far more neutral, confident and powerful than is usually heard for this money. They were also one the best things at the Whittlebury show. Reading WHF's I32 review I don't recognise this sound - and nor, it seems, would the other dozen or so reviewers assembled on Primare's download pages.... including the Gramophone, who described the I32 as 'exemplary'.
That review was written by Andrew Everard.
jerry klinger said:
-... .-.. .- -. -.- / .--. --- ... - / --- .-. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . ..--..
John Duncan
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Haycher78 said:
Whether it's mistaken or not, Class D amplification has regularly been referred to as 'digital' amplification since I can remember (presumably because of it's 'binary' switching, not that I understand what that is either).
I don't think there's any suggestion that there is any 'analogue to digital conversion' going on.
Haycher78 said:
Umm...
Haycher78 said:
I found 34 five-star amp reviews, of which about 8 are English (though if we're being inclusively British, you'd have to count the Leemas in as well I think)...
John Duncan
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As an aside, Haycher78, could you clarify your trade status in your signature please, as required by the House Rules here.
Andrew Everard said:
Most forums would ban you for that. But a good idea to comment on the more intelligent of my two posts.
A delete function would help though....
Andrew Everard said:
Love the humour!! (For those of you who can't read morse code it reads: "Blank post or morse code") lol :type: :rant: :? :read: :shifty:
John Duncan said:
Unlikely to happen, as Haycher78 hasn't been seen around these parts since his one and only strafing attack much earlier in the year. But for the record, his email address leads back to the Australian distributor of Primare.
jerry klinger said:
Would they?
jerry klinger said:
Nothing to add on the less intelligent of the two: wasn't involved in the WHFSV review, so can't really comment on the findings there; was (obviously) involved in the Gramophone one, but don't see any contradiction problems – the WHFSV review team listen to somewhat different music to that I do, as is clear from the musical examples given in and around the Gramophone review..
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Yes, spotted that; what I didn't spot was the fact that it was six months ago, otherwise I'd have saved a bit of time...Andrew Everard said:
Andrew Everard said:
Thanks for the clarification Andrew. I always assumed you were part of that team.
Time to go off and listen to it for myself!
nopiano
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Jerry, I also heard the 22 pair at Whittlebury and they were one of my favourites, pretty much regardless of cost, and definitely for the money. They were being used by the Elac folks, I recall?
Earlier this year, I heard the 32 pair at Bristol, and wrote on this forum how fine they'd sounded. So I'm definitely a fan, and if my Krells were to go kaput the Primares would be at the top of my audition list.
I'm also a bit surprised that WHF weren't so impressed, but there are so many factors at play it is hard to agree on everything!
A shame the thread was started in such a way. Credit to Andrew and co for leaving it for all to see.
Earlier this year, I heard the 32 pair at Bristol, and wrote on this forum how fine they'd sounded. So I'm definitely a fan, and if my Krells were to go kaput the Primares would be at the top of my audition list.
I'm also a bit surprised that WHF weren't so impressed, but there are so many factors at play it is hard to agree on everything!
A shame the thread was started in such a way. Credit to Andrew and co for leaving it for all to see.
My Lyngdorf TDAi 2200 is called a Digital amp by Lyngdorf (they should know) but the ADC card is only an optional extra?
I22 amplifier looks very interesting (I hope it can be good solution for low level listening because of low distorsion and strength of class D). What seems curious to me is DAC modul. Why to convert D/A in case of digital amplifier ?? There is useless D/A & A/D cascade where sound can be modified to worse ...
caddyhound said:
Yes, but surely without that card the Lyngdorf can only accept digital inputs, although it has the socketry in place for analogue ones should the card be fitted. As the Lyngdorf website says,
'A/D Converter
The TDAI 2200 can be equipped with a state-of-the-art A/D conversion module with 1 balanced and 3 unbalanced inputs. This extends the amplifier from being just a digital control center, and allows it to interface with analog sources.'
bh69 said:
there's no such thing as a digital amp in the sense you have on mind. class D amps are often called digital amps but this is just a misconception which IMO has it's roots in the fact that digital devices and class D amps exhibit bipolar scheme of operation - they are either on or off and nothing in between. however, class D does not amplify digital stream but normal analog waveform. no amp can do anything useful with a digital stream because it's just signals and quiets and sound we listen is comprised of various frequencies from range 20 - 20kHz (but you know it). so there has to be D/A conversion of digital signal before amplification can be done even in case of digital/ class D amps.
I'm not expert, but based on simple schema of class-D principe - http://www.maxim-ic.com/app-notes/index.mvp/id/3977 - I think it should be relatively easy to use digital signal (nothing else as stream of amplitude values) for driving pulse generator. Those triangle signal and comparator with audio signal would be replaced by this digital control unit.
Maybe I'm wrong, but Lyngdorf amplifiers work similar way ? Some of them has no analog inputs at all.
Maybe I'm wrong, but Lyngdorf amplifiers work similar way ? Some of them has no analog inputs at all.
bh69 said:
but as you can see from the first schematic you still need to mate analog wave with triangle wave oscillator. you are also correct that all you need are amplitudes but this exactly the reason why a class D amp needs analog wave input. look at it this way. amplitudes values are buried within digital stream but unless they are converted to analog this information will not recovered. PWM will see digital stream for what it is, which is just a square wave of impulses and lack of impulses. so what you'd get from your speakers would most likely resemble listening to Morse code but with much faster.
bh69 said:
same thing with Devialet. it's a purely digital device and although you'll find analog inputs there the signal gets transformed to digital on entry in A/D converter, so it's better not to use analog ins due to inherent A/D D/A conversion. anyway, the power amp section is analog. it has to be or class D amp wouldn't know what to amplify. and I'm pretty sure those Lyngdorfs, even without analog inputs work in the same fashion.
despite the fact that many people call class D a Digital amp it's truly just another type of analog amp output stage. so, you could make a "Digital" amp (by saying that I mean having only digital inputs) and equip it with a class A output stage and its working principle would not differ much from the same amp equipped in class D output stage. the only difference would be that it'll be bulkier, will run hotter but will sound much better
But only thing what this D-amp needs is to know how long should be output sestion "open" and how long "closed", depending on actual signal value. The fact that signal is digital makes no morse code, but a stream of numbers - in case of CD quality 16 bit values in 1/44100 second intervals. With a small processing it that can be used for driving switched output. All still digital - little control unit would switch on/off. I think it's more logical and pure way. Of course most people want analog inputs still and then a A/D converter would be needed.
bh69 said:
the way I see it you're describing how a normal DAC works but instead getting output signal in fractions of volts you want to get signal capable of driving speakers. interesting. but is it possible? and more importantly worthwhile?
Leaving aside your side-swipe at WHF, the reviewers may have got it wrong (about the sound) on this occasion - afterall, they are only human! Having heard this product compared to a MS M6 & Supernait in Oxford - I was amazed by the sound quality. Its level of detail was quite stunning but also sounded unforced with excellent dynamics & timing. I cannot coment on whether or not they reviewed a representative sample or not.
WHF certainly got the review of Audiolab's M-DAC absolutely bang-on in my opinion though - punches well above its weight! Equally stunning sound to the Primare.
WHF certainly got the review of Audiolab's M-DAC absolutely bang-on in my opinion though - punches well above its weight! Equally stunning sound to the Primare.
> the way I see it you're describing how a normal DAC works but instead getting
> output signal in fractions of volts you want to get signal capable of driving speakers
yes, it's similar but there is a one important diferrence - DACs don't use switching (pulse modulation) that enables big power on output
> output signal in fractions of volts you want to get signal capable of driving speakers
yes, it's similar but there is a one important diferrence - DACs don't use switching (pulse modulation) that enables big power on output
I am in the market for a new integrated amp and the Primare i32 is on my list as so the Exposure 3010s2 and the Roksan Caspian m2.
Could anyone tell me if there is a big difference between the i30 and the i32? Because WHF really liked the i30 and the i32 not so.
Could anyone tell me if there is a big difference between the i30 and the i32? Because WHF really liked the i30 and the i32 not so.
I've been listening to the Primare I32 for the last week. Stunning amounts of clear detail as previously stated. Where personal responses will enter the equation is that it's clearly got a different texture to the toroid-based amps many of us are used to. I found it a little mechanical compared to some recent British amps but am prepared to accept that this is more a matter of taste than inherent quality (though I tend to agree about the treble).
Or to state the obvious - we're all so used to the Arcams, Naims, Regas and Roksans of this world that this kind of amp may seem too radical. In terms of telling you what's on your CDs, though, I can't imagine much better - in fact it says a lot about what is coming off your CDs, LPs etc, and points a critical finger at some pretty expensive amplification in terms of losing information. Listen first.
:clap:
Or to state the obvious - we're all so used to the Arcams, Naims, Regas and Roksans of this world that this kind of amp may seem too radical. In terms of telling you what's on your CDs, though, I can't imagine much better - in fact it says a lot about what is coming off your CDs, LPs etc, and points a critical finger at some pretty expensive amplification in terms of losing information. Listen first.
:clap:
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