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Power bars, power cables - a proper written debate

  • Thread starter QuestForThe13thNote
  • Start date
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

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https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference/

Given what’s been written recently I’d like to suggest that andyjm and any other individuals with a strong background in electrical engineering on this forum but who have a counter view about power cables, contact those on the opposite side of the fence and have a proper discussion in writing with these authors of such a website, to present both the view for and against and balanced views and discussion, so that we can try and make our mind up.

If this is really a topic that people want to get to the bottom of I’m sure you would be willing to do so andyjm?

I think it would be very insightful to hear the opposite arguments, and I’m sure some of these people who present the case for power cables making a difference to sound quality, will take part. It would be interesting from the perspective of those things that cannot be adequately explained.

anyone up for it? No schoolboy stuff please.
 

nick8858

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference/

Given what’s been written recently I’d like to suggest that andyjm and any other individuals with a strong background in electrical engineering on this forum but who have a counter view about power cables, contact those on the opposite side of the fence and have a proper discussion in writing with these authors of such a website, to present both the view for and against and balanced views and discussion, so that we can try and make our mind up.

If this is really a topic that people want to get to the bottom of I’m sure you would be willing to do so andyjm?

I think it would be very insightful to hear the opposite arguments, and I’m sure some of these people who present the case for power cables making a difference to sound quality, will take part. It would be interesting from the perspective of those things that cannot be adequately explained.

anyone up for it? No schoolboy stuff please.
Give me strength!
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

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You aren’t adding to the thread, why don’t you just go and do something different. Maybe make a nice cake.
 

nick8858

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Bit of cooking? Good idea as I've just got a mains conditioner and my microwave is something else now I can tell you!
 

cheeseboy

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
You aren’t adding to the thread, why don’t you just go and do something different. Maybe make a nice cake.
being your usual hypocritical self I see. Nice. *boredom*

anyways to answer your question, the whole thing is a non starter. Companies involved in selling such products would never engage in such discussions, and would not entertain such a thing. why? Well if they are proven wrong, their whole business is worthless. Try asking yourself the more prudent question - why is it that companies that sell such amazing products never produce the figures and evidence to back up what they say other than spurious psuedoscience and vague quotes such as "we think it makes a difference" and "everybody who listened to it thought it made it better etc" when all the other manufacturers of said devices that the hifi world would consider standard and are not audiophile (say like the bulk manufacturers such as Liteon etc) can and do produces such figures and white papers.

If there's a real world change, it *will* be measurable. It's even possible that those changes can be proven, but are not audible such as ultrasonic frequencies etc.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
I think you’ve answered your own question as reading the post on the link I provided, he is very much engaging in such discussions.

You don’t need evidence to back up your experience. If x amp is great, I wouldn’t ask you could you provide me technical evidence it’s great. Cheers.
 

jimmy1

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i doubt any makers of these cables would admit if they didnt make a difference, surely they would be biased
 

cheeseboy

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
I think you’ve answered your own question as reading the post on the link I provided, he is very much engaging in such discussions.
no he's not, it's a sales piece.

QuestForThe13thNote said:
You don’t need evidence to back up your experience. If x amp is great, I wouldn’t ask you could you provide me technical evidence it’s great. Cheers.
that's nothing to do with the thread you have just started. You need evidence if you are going to make a claim, which is what this thread is about isn't it? This isn't about preferences.
 

andyjm

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Jul 20, 2012
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QuestForThe13thNote said:
https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference/

Given what’s been written recently I’d like to suggest that andyjm and any other individuals with a strong background in electrical engineering on this forum but who have a counter view about power cables, contact those on the opposite side of the fence and have a proper discussion in writing with these authors of such a website, to present both the view for and against and balanced views and discussion, so that we can try and make our mind up.
Just so we are clear, this isn't a matter of opinion or of view. The beauty of science is you can test stuff to see whether you are talking nonsense or not.

Your link above I am afraid is typical of the sort of advertising that is prevelant around cables. Just enough science to sound credible, without any specific claims to allow a rigorous rebuttal. I don't honestly think it will be possible to have a real debate with someone who is in the employ of a company selling 'audiophile' mains cables. You are not going to get a Gerald Ratner admission - why would they? There is a famous quote from Upton Sinclair "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on him not understanding it"

Lets come back to this when I have run through my power supply series, and see whether you need further confirmation.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
You should give it a go. If you’ve got lots of time on your hands. You may be convinced otherwise.

Its not really a full explanation on that link, no, but then neither is yours really so far, as nowhere near explores all the issues. I think the guy probably owns it, and as he is a small player I suspect he will engage with you. In fact I will ask him and be the go between the two people if you like?

I don’t buy the type of conspiracy view people con people on such matters, the cable has to exist in a market and like Ellis said on 50people the doubting rate is only 2 percent. That’s persuasive. Your argument looses credibility when you play this card you do.
 

andyjm

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
You should give it a go. If you’ve got lots of time on your hands. You may be convinced otherwise.

Its not really a full explanation on that link, no, but then neither is yours really so far, as nowhere near explores all the issues. I think the guy probably owns it, and as he is a small player I suspect he will engage with you. In fact I will ask him and be the go between the two people if you like?

I don’t buy the type of conspiracy view people con people on such matters, the cable has to exist in a market and like Ellis said on 50people the doubting rate is only 2 percent. That’s persuasive. Your argument looses credibility when you play this card you do.
It would be trivial to include hard numbers around mains cable performance in marketing material. Reduction in noise, improvement in amplifier distortion, improvement in frequency response.

Look up a data sheet for any electronic component, there will be pages and pages of data, graphs and performance information. Yet there are never any figures included in cable advertisements, just nebulous claims.

You can reach your own conclusions why this might be the case.
 

Oldphrt

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
https://www.gcaudio.com/tips-tricks/why-power-cables-make-a-difference/

Given what’s been written recently I’d like to suggest that andyjm and any other individuals with a strong background in electrical engineering on this forum but who have a counter view about power cables, contact those on the opposite side of the fence and have a proper discussion in writing with these authors of such a website, to present both the view for and against and balanced views and discussion, so that we can try and make our mind up.

If this is really a topic that people want to get to the bottom of I’m sure you would be willing to do so andyjm?

I think it would be very insightful to hear the opposite arguments, and I’m sure some of these people who present the case for power cables making a difference to sound quality, will take part. It would be interesting from the perspective of those things that cannot be adequately explained.

anyone up for it? No schoolboy stuff please.
The entire thread is born of wanton and determined ignorance. It can't be debated.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
andyjm said:
QuestForThe13thNote said:
You should give it a go. If you’ve got lots of time on your hands. You may be convinced otherwise.

Its not really a full explanation on that link, no, but then neither is yours really so far, as nowhere near explores all the issues. I think the guy probably owns it, and as he is a small player I suspect he will engage with you. In fact I will ask him and be the go between the two people if you like?

I don’t buy the type of conspiracy view people con people on such matters, the cable has to exist in a market and like Ellis said on 50people the doubting rate is only 2 percent. That’s persuasive. Your argument looses credibility when you play this card you do.
It would be trivial to include hard numbers around mains cable performance in marketing material. Reduction in noise, improvement in amplifier distortion, improvement in frequency response.

Look up a data sheet for any electronic component, there will be pages and pages of data, graphs and performance information. Yet there are never any figures included in cable advertisements, just nebulous claims.

You can reach your own conclusions why this might be the case.
remember Andy what the supposed hypothesis is.... I suggested ‘does power cables and star wired blocks make a difference to sound quality’ , but we seem to be going back to things you want to measure again, which is fine but it’s not exclusive. Remember that you are solely trying to prove or disprove the hypothesis and why this is or might be so. You don’t have to have concrete evidence of it happening to conclude. Do you understand my point?

I did a science degree and basically there are lots of scientific papers in biology that reach conclusions that aren’t able to fully explain things. Darwin’s theory in his book ‘on the origin of species’ is one that was proposed and was accepted. It’s accepted until something better comes along, but evolution theory is now pretty certainl. But it was simply a working theory. But Hawkings theory is the same, it’s accpeted and demonstrated by theoretical maths, until something better come along. That’s all science seeks to do, explain things, until something better comes along (if at all)

it makes your position resistant to accept any un explanabales in the cable debate, and what might happen, because as i say I think you’ve made your mind up before, and this comes across in your responses.

the first thing to accept is that these people are hearing changes like with the isotek demo, which would be a separate hypothesis - does mains conditioning effect sq. but surely you accept the persuasiveness and credibility of this test. How many people would have to go through that isotek room until you accepted it, or wouldn’t it matter? Could you accept it going to the demo yourself and the go from there....
 

nick8858

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And couldn't you accept just for once that you are wrong and someone else is right. Your last post is a rambling disconnected diatribe. Makes listening to Theresa May positively interesting...
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

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nick8858 said:
And couldn't you accept just for once that you are wrong and someone else is right. Your last post is a rambling disconnected diatribe. Makes listening to Theresa May positively interesting...
if you don’t understand that you can’t have much upstairs.
 

nick8858

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if you don’t understand that you can’t have much upstairs.

What do you mean, I have 2 bedrooms and a bathroom upstairs...
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

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This is the reply I got from Galen
Hi Simon,
Thanks for your note, happy to respond. In short, don't waste your time. There are people who trust their ears and those that are unwilling to do so - and you'll never be able to change the mind of those who aren't. These folks assume that everything we hear can be easily measured, and this is simply not the case. Further, they generally assume that if something isn't a currently accepted theory, it doesn't exist. To those folks I offer the following:"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - Albert Einstein.Simply put, don't get involved in the argument, it's a waste of time. Plain and simple: Trust your ears.
 

nick8858

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
This is the reply I got from Galen
Hi Simon, Thanks for your note, happy to respond. In short, don't waste your time. There are people who trust their ears and those that are unwilling to do so - and you'll never be able to change the mind of those who aren't. These folks assume that everything we hear can be easily measured, and this is simply not the case. Further, they generally assume that if something isn't a currently accepted theory, it doesn't exist. To those folks I offer the following: "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - Albert Einstein.Simply put, don't get involved in the argument, it's a waste of time. Plain and simple: Trust your ears.
Just another view. Doesn't mean its true. Doesn't mean its false either of course. Selecting your sources to back up your position doesn't prove its true either.
 

BigH

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
nick8858 said:
And couldn't you accept just for once that you are wrong and someone else is right. Your last post is a rambling disconnected diatribe. Makes listening to Theresa May positively interesting...
if you don’t understand that you can’t have much upstairs.
That's a bit rich coming from someone who lives in a flat.
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
nick8858 said:
QuestForThe13thNote said:
This is the reply I got from Galen
Hi Simon, Thanks for your note, happy to respond. In short, don't waste your time. There are people who trust their ears and those that are unwilling to do so - and you'll never be able to change the mind of those who aren't. These folks assume that everything we hear can be easily measured, and this is simply not the case. Further, they generally assume that if something isn't a currently accepted theory, it doesn't exist. To those folks I offer the following: "Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - Albert Einstein.Simply put, don't get involved in the argument, it's a waste of time. Plain and simple: Trust your ears.
Just another view. Doesn't mean its true. Doesn't mean its false either of course. Selecting your sources to back up your position doesn't prove its true either.
i neither selected my sources I simply provided his view....
 

nick8858

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BigH said:
QuestForThe13thNote said:
nick8858 said:
And couldn't you accept just for once that you are wrong and someone else is right. Your last post is a rambling disconnected diatribe. Makes listening to Theresa May positively interesting...
if you don’t understand that you can’t have much upstairs.
That's a bit rich coming from someone who lives in a flat.
Hallelujah! Some humour! Excellent post sir!
 

CnoEvil

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QuestForThe13thNote said:
if you don’t understand that you can’t have much upstairs.
Even though I'm on the same side of the debate as you....I think that the way you put your arguments, does more damage to our case (such as it is), than the sceptics manage.

As soon as you insult someone, you have lost the argument, as far as I'm concerned.
 

nick8858

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CnoEvil said:
QuestForThe13thNote said:
if you don’t understand that you can’t have much upstairs.
Even though I'm on the same side of the debate as you....I think that the way you put your arguments, does more damage to our case (such as it is), than the sceptics manage.

As soon as you insult someone, you have lost the argument, as far as I'm concerned.
Plus 1 Agree. Also humour is the best response!
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

Guest
CnoEvil said:
QuestForThe13thNote said:
if you don’t understand that you can’t have much upstairs.
Even though I'm on the same side of the debate as you....I think that the way you put your arguments, does more damage to our case (such as it is), than the sceptics manage.

As soon as you insult someone, you have lost the argument, as far as I'm concerned.
i think everyone has a limit and I don’t take to aggressive types well. There are too many on the Internet and they need telling where to go.
 

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