Potential DAC for listening room

[robsoup]

Hi there

I recently setup a small listening room upstairs with a Squeezebox Touch, Cyrus 6a amp and KEF R100 speakers.

At the same time as this, I added an Arcam rDAC to my setup in the lounge (primarily to allow me to play my films through the stereo hifi). I thought I would see the difference between the Classic's DAC and the Arcam by hooking them up - and the Arcam did sound quite a bit better. A clearer sound - with better highs and bass notes.

The listening room is really my #1 room for music, and this got me thinking that perhaps it is not at it's potential by using the onboard DAC in the SBT. So I tried the Arcam rDAC upstairs and it was better. The Touch was closer to the sound of the rDAC (i.e. the Touch is better than the Classic) but the Arcam was still a clearer sound.

So now I am thinking that I'd like to get a DAC for the listening room.

Downstairs I have generally paid between £200 and £400 for each item:

- Arcam rDAC: £240

- Marantz PM6002: £350

- B&W 685: £380

Whereas upstairs it's more like the £500 to £700 range:

- Cyrus 6a: £640

- KEF R100: £590

So I am thinking - using the rDAC as a starting point, what potential DACs should I be looking at that would suit my listening room?

I have thought of the following so far:

- upgrade Cyrus 6a to Cyrus 6 DAC: £400

- get another Arcam rDAC: £270

- Music Fidelity M1DAC: £400

- Rega DAC: £500

- Audiolab M-DAC: £600

Some others include Benchmark, Beresford and Cambridge Audio.

It's not always easy to listen to the DACs back to back so comparing can be difficult. Has anyone heard any of the above - and even more useful - any of the above against each other?

Thanks for your help.

Rob.

 

[theadmans]

I'd save some money and go for the Beresford Bushmaster (around £185).

I've compared the Bushmaster to the MDAC and prefer it despite the huge difference in price.

I have used a Bushmaster in my main system with a Squeezebox Touch for a couple of months now.

 

[Ajani]

As I suspect you already know (and most likely other forum members will tell you), the best approach is to audition as many of those DACs as you can in your system and keep the one you like best.

However, in you situation (assuming I either could not or would not audition) I'd just upgrade the Cyrus. That would make the system tidier and require the use of one less cable than the other options.

P.S. I love my Benchmark DAC1, but I wouldn't pay UK prices for it.

 

[robsoup]

Yeah I totally agree that auditioning them is definitely the best way. That's exactly how I bought the rest of my setup (apart from the rDAC as I just wanted a cheapish well renowned DAC for the TV feed into the hifi in the lounge).

I believe I can audition the M-DAC and Rega at AudioT, and the M1DAC, M-DAC and Cyrus 6 DAC at Sevenoaks. I already have the rDAC, and should be able to audition Cambridge Audio at Richersounds.

I'm not sure if I can audition the Benchmark or Beresford though - and I really don't like buying on reviews alone for my main system (for example I didn't like the Q Acoustic speakers that what hifi love so much).

With regards the Cyrus 6 DAC, all I worry is that I am paying £400 for a much cheaper DAC as part of that cost is the labour fee for swapping it into the case. Also I have to be without the system for a week (although not the end of the world).

BTW - interesting that you preferred the Beresford to the Audiolab, as from what I have read the Audiolab DAC is well loved in hifi circles (I believe their CD player also uses this DAC). Some people have said it's better that the Cyrus Qx DAC too.

I guess I won't know until I audition, but any helpful hints are appreciated!

 

[shafesk]

I am getting increasingly pessimistic about dac expenditure, I feel at times I can't confidently tell the difference between 2 of my dacs. If you are adament then perhaps a rega dac will nicely add some smoothness if thats what you are looking for. In my opinion a cyrus dac or mdac could make your system (which sounds neutral to me) too clinical.

 

[Ajani]

I am getting increasingly pessimistic about dac expenditure, I feel at times I can't confidently tell the difference between 2 of my dacs.

I've experienced that myself at times. The reason I opted for the DAC1 is because it serves as my DAC and headphone amp & as my Pre when I use active monitors. (Many other DACs now offer similar features - but often times they are more an afterthought than properly implemented).

If you are adament then perhaps a rega dac will nicely add some smoothness if thats what you are looking for. In my opinion a cyrus dac or mdac could make your system (which sounds neutral to me) too clinical.

A fair point. It really depends on what the OP is looking for. I prefer the source to be neutral and exact, and to add warmth with amp/speakers (if so desired).

 

[theadmans]

Although you cannot audition a Beresford Bushmaster in a shop, as they are only sold direct from the Beresford website, I believe they offer a no quibble 2 week trial after which you can get your money back if not satisfied.

 

[robsoup]

You are probably right - that it is a lot harder to discern the difference between DACs than speakers. Integrated amps are probably the next biggest factor, but I definately found an improvement in sound between the squeezebox and the rDAC (with the Touch being better than the Classic for sure).

I think now that I have a good quality setup upstairs with the Cyrus and the KEFs this is the next (last!?) thing that I want to improve so that I can say I am getting full potential out of the speakers and amp.

I want a detailed and musical sound. The Cyrus is a very fast amp (drums beats stop quickly and difficult passages are not played in catch-up mode, which is what my Marantz suffers from) and the KEFs are a very nice musical speaker (not too detailed, but not bland - just right for rock music).

I think I want a more detailed open sound from the DAC as the squeezebox is a little 'flat' for my tastes.

Buying a Beresford sounds like an idea - although I don't like playing them around - perhaps they could just lend me one! A lot of people on WHF forum seem to love the Rega DAC sound. AVforums seem to have people pushing the M-DAC from Audiolab as a more detailed source choice.

 

[ebentjerodt]

the rega DAC is defenetly a good option, but if you can strage your budget go for the Chord qute HD. this will be a big impeovment in your system. this DAC will also alow you to heard DSD files if sometiem you get cuorious.

kr

Eduardo

 

[BigH]

I would give the Bereford a try, you can return within 2 weeks if its no good.

 

[robsoup]

I might see about trying out the Beresford - could be interesting at £100 less than the price of the rDAC. The M1DAC, Rega and MDAC interest me the most though so it will be intetesting to hear those. I might even see if I can home-demo them from Audio T or Sevenoaks. The MDAC sounds just what I want from a DAC, but we will see...

 

[p_m_brown]

If you end up looking at the higher end DACs, check out the M2Tech Young dac - you can get an ex demo one for under £800. I'm doing a home demo of that and the Leema Dac and when I A/B tested them on Sunday, the Young sounded slightly less detailed but more exciting/involving.

 

[robsoup]

I've been chatting on the avf site and they've told me about a plugin for the touch that allows you to use the usb for audio, which means that you can connect an async usb dac and resolve all jitter issues. So now I'll be looking at that and limiting myself to async dacs. This sounds very promising and will be the perfect transport for the job imo.

 

[robsoup]

I got to listen to the M1DAC and M-DAC today at Sevenoaks, and took my rDAC along as a comparison.

I started with the rDAC so that I had something to compare the others against. It sounded very good, but maybe not the clearest when it came to heavy metal like Machine Head. I was auditioning a wide range of music as I had prepared a demo CD the night before with a good mix of genres.

When I moved to the M1DAC it sounded like the audio had been cleaned up. The background noise appeared to reduce and there was seperation between the instruments which really showed on the heavy/fast music. However, some tracks like the Eagles and Fleetwood Mac actually sounded what I would deem 'less musical'.

I think the main thing that I noticed was that it seemed a bit thin sounding. A reasonable top-end but the bass and midrange didn't seem exceptional. Idioteque by Radiohead seems to lack bass. Overall it was an improvement over the rDAC in terms of clarity.

Then I moved onto the M-DAC, which for me was night and day the better DAC. It had all the detail of the M1DAC and then some. It was clean sounding, but the mids and bass were also exceptional. This is the DAC I walked away with today.

It is now running in async USB mode with my SB Touch and it sounds great. I think I have got to a very nice setup until the upgrade bug comes around again, haha.

 

[matt49]

Then I moved onto the M-DAC, which for me was night and day the better DAC. It had all the detail of the M1DAC and then some. It was clean sounding, but the mids and bass were also exceptional. This is the DAC I walked away with today.

It is now running in async USB mode with my SB Touch and it sounds great. I think I have got to a very nice setup until the upgrade bug comes around again, haha.

Congratulations! You join a big and happy crowd who think the MDAC is a killer.

If the upgrade bug bites again: the designer of the MDAC, John Westlake, is currently retrofitting an upgrade which he thinks blows the original MDAC out of the water. Check out the PFM audio forum.

But in the meantime, enjoy the MDAC for the brilliant piece of kit it is!

Matt

 

[stevebrock]

IMHO I think most DACs in the £500 arena are all superb - I think you seriously need to look at the transport as it is equally important!

Streaming from a NAS directly to the DAC of your choice is the way to go!

The Squeexebox is great yes, but hard-wiring from NAS > DAC will outperfrom a Squeezebox/CD/BD player as a transport, and yes I have tried all 3 and they are all inferior to NAS > DAC.

 

[robsoup]

Yeah I can see why this DAC has such an avid following now - it is detailed, musical and enjoyable.

I think I will start off by installing Dom and John's latest firmware update: http://wikkii.org/wiki/M-DAC

Have you got a link to any of the hardware updates they are making?

Now, this might be slightly off-topic for this thread, but talking of upgrades - does anyone know the actual differences between the Cyrus 6a and 8a apart from the power amplifier section (40W --> 70W)?

thanks

Rob.

 

[robsoup]

Re: transport - I dont think that's the case Steve.

My files are all stored on a NAS and accessed by the Squeezebox via Ethernet. As I have installed the EDO patch on the Squeezebox, the MDAC is working in Asynchronous mode. This means that the DAC tells the SBT when it wants the data fed to it, and resolves SPDIF jitter issues.

As long as the USB buffer on the DAC is not getting exhausted (which it isn't) then I already have a jitter free transport and don't believe this can be improved upon.

All of my music is ripped from CD to FLAC using dbPowerAMP to get a bit perfect copy of each track (as verified using secure ripping and Accurate rip database).

I am completely happy that the source side of my system (digital file, storage method, streaming transport) is top-notch.

The next phase in the chain - the digital-to-analogue conversion - is as good as I need it to be right now. The Cyrus pre-amp is very good and energetic, and the power amp section isn't too bad either (and can be uprated by Cyrus in the future). Speakers are musical and detailed.

I think people in the hifi business still misunderstand jitter somewhat. I hear all kinds of strange things at hifi shops - like asynchronous spdif being available on hi-end DACs (this does not exist as the spdif just recieves data), jitter from ripping CDs being a problem that cannot be fixed (modern CD drives and secure ripping resolve these issues).

 

[matt49]

Have you got a link to any of the hardware updates they are making?

Rob,

there's a brief outline of the two hardware upgrades here:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=136892

For more detail you'd have to read through hundreds (thousands?) of posts on the various MDAC threads on PFM.

Matt

 

[robsoup]

Thanks for the link - good info there. Looks like a good upgrade taking the DAC up to the highest levels out there... uprated PSU and analogue sections...

I think I will stick with what I have right now as I think you only notice upgrades if you space them out well enough to adjust to the differences. I see you have modded the hardware in your Sonos. Any plans to mod the MDAC?

 

[stevebrock]

My files are all stored on a NAS and accessed by the Squeezebox via Ethernet. As I have installed the EDO patch on the Squeezebox, the MDAC is working in Asynchronous mode. This means that the DAC tells the SBT when it wants the data fed to it, and resolves SPDIF jitter issues.

I was perhaps a bit flipant with my SBT comment, I was streaming over wireless from an iMac to a SBT>DAC and I still think it was inferior to my ears over NAS>DAC.

My SBT is now in the bedroom wired up with some Active speakers and is simply quite impressive.

My iMac has gone now, so I rip everything in ALAC on my MacBook Pro with my iTunes library pointing to my NAS - I also run BitPerfect in the background and the results from my NAS>DAC (hardwired) are superb!

 

[matt49]

Thanks for the link - good info there. Looks like a good upgrade taking the DAC up to the highest levels out there... uprated PSU and analogue sections...

I think I will stick with what I have right now as I think you only notice upgrades if you space them out well enough to adjust to the differences. I see you have modded the hardware in your Sonos. Any plans to mod the MDAC?

I'm on John's MDAC upgrade list, but I was quite late coming to the party, and things seem to be moving slowly, so I don't think it'll happen before the end of the summer.

The modded Sonos seems good. I've been waiting until it beds down before I do a comparative test with an unmodded ZP90. I like the interface and networking of the Sonos so much that I'm loath to replace it (and the rest of the family is also hooked on it) so modding is a good (if expensive) way forward. Though I may try out a Linn streamer or similar in the living room once I get a new amp and speakers in there.