Older Naim amps: comparability to new models

[Dan Turner]

Hi. I have long been interested in Naim gear and would love to get a Naim amp, but at the moment I certainly can't afford to get a new one. Therefore I was wondering how the older gear stacks up approximately against the newer stuff and what sort of thing i should be going for to get an upgrade over my current Creek/Arcam/Arcam set-up rather than just take a sideways step.

For instance the NAC 72 seems to be available at reasonable prices, but am I better off going for something newer like a NAC 122x or would I better off buying new and going for a NAC 152XS - my Creek passive pre is very transparent so am I likely to lose out here unless I go for something higher up the range?

How about a NAP250 - this this 'almost' as good as 250/2, or would I really be better off with a brand new NAP155XS or a NAP200?

What I like about my current sound is that it's detailed across the frequency range, with good soundstaging and good tonal colour. What I'm after is a more dynamic, punchy sound, with a bit more snap and life to it, that will get me closer to what live music sounds like. I'm mainly in to rock and acoustic.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[Dan Turner]

Any thoughts folks? I'd like to get an idea before I start chancing it on stuff on ebay if possible :0)

 

[fatboyslimfast]

I bought my 102/180 combo about 18 months ago, and absolutely love it.

Bought new, the combo would have been somewhere around £2500, but I only paid around £900 for it, and this was with a 12-month warranty from an authorised Naim dealer.

Have a look at tomtomaudio - he has a "preloved" section and has lots of stock in at the mo...

 

[jockey.wilson]

Just changed a Naim system (10 years old) for a new Cyrus sytem.

I had a NAC 102 and NAP 140, with a CD 3.5. The 102/140 combo was very dynamic, although slightly forward sounding. I believe newer Naim amps are less 'in yer face'. That said, they sounded great.

FWIW, the Cyrus system is much more transparent, but a little less exciting. For rock and dance, an old Naim amp is ideal I think, and compares very favourably with newer stuff.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Hi Dan

The older and newer stuff are quite different. The new Naim stuff is much smoother than the older stuff, and as a result compatible with far more speakers than they used to be. It's also much more listenable for a longer period of time.

The older stuff is much leaner sounding, with more emphasis on the midrange and HF. If you had a bassy speaker, this stuff would sort them out. For me, they were much more realistic - if someone is playing a set of drums in front of you, crash cymbals and hi-hats aren't smooth and laid back - the Naim gave real music the edge I expect it to have. Because of this forwardness, it made it quite hard to match many speakers to them, and only really worked well with their own speakers, Epos, and a small handful of others.

The 72/140 was a cracking combination, and I wouldn't hesitate in buying said combination as a second system. This combo you can pick up for about £600, which will walk over anything else at the price point. Fatboy's 102/180 is also a great combination - I really liked the 180, which was one of the later of the old power amps (as was the 102 pre).

If you plump for a NAP250, you would have to buy a Hi-Cap for whichever pre-amp you decided to go for, as Naim's pre-amps take their low voltage from the power amps, but in the case of the 250, it was designed purely as a power amp, with no feed for a pre-amp.

Whether you prefer the old or the new is entirely your choice - it depends whether you prefer a more 'in your face' type of sound or something more laid back.

 

[Dan Turner]

Thanks for the replies - some good info there. I have found TomTom Audio already - it looks like a great retailer.

David - how do you think something like a NAC72/NAP250 would compare to what I have at the moment, which (if you go by new prices) is about £2200 worth of amp.

From what you've said the Naim gear is going to give me exactly what I'm looking for, so if I can pick up a bargain on some 2nd hand Naim kit then I can compare it to what I currently have and sell on the loser. I did find a guy at work selling a NAC72/NAP250/Hi-Cap for £750 a while back and was on the brink of getting it, but instead I opted for a new CD player, which I've always regretted, especially since I made the move to a computer based set-up since then!

One thing I would be interested to know though is how a NAC72 compares to a 122x or 152XS - ignoring differences in presentation for the moment and going by absolute quality on balance. I do wonder whether for convenience (remote and connectivity I'm thinking) it might be better to go for a newer pre-amp, even if I opt for an older power amp.

 

[fatboyslimfast]

Absolute quality is a tricky one to guage - if the presentation isn't to your liking then it doesn't matter.

Detail-wise, the 72 is similar to the 122x, and the 140 would have similar detail to the 152, although the 152 should edge it.

But the presentation is totally different...

I can vouch for TomTomAudio, having bought mine from him. Give him a bell and if he's not too far away pop in - he'll be happy to demo lots of different combos...

 

[Anonymous]

You're likely to get a broader range of replies (which might help or not!) on the Naim forum

 

[Frank Harvey]

Dan Turner: David - how do you think something like a NAC72/NAP250 would compare to what I have at the moment, which (if you go by new prices) is about £2200 worth of amp.

Naim's different to Arcam. That answer will come down to one's personal preferences more than anything else. Personally, I'd choose the Naim, but that's because I like the old Naim amps.

From what you've said the Naim gear is going to give me exactly what I'm looking for, so if I can pick up a bargain on some 2nd hand Naim kit then I can compare it to what I currently have and sell on the loser. I did find a guy at work selling a NAC72/NAP250/Hi-Cap for £750 a while back and was on the brink of getting it, but instead I opted for a new CD player, which I've always regretted, especially since I made the move to a computer based set-up since then!

You really missed out there!! That is a serious bargain, and a very capable pre/power, able to pretty much drive anything. I'd have had that before I even thought about it!

One thing I would be interested to know though is how a NAC72 compares to a 122x or 152XS - ignoring differences in presentation for the moment and going by absolute quality on balance. I do wonder whether for convenience (remote and connectivity I'm thinking) it might be better to go for a newer pre-amp, even if I opt for an older power amp.

It's hard to say without compring them directly. Going by memory, if you were talking about the 112, I'd say the 72 would be better, but the 122x is a great pre-amp, and really would need an A/B comparison to be certain.

 

[Dan Turner]

Thanks David - I know, I was a wally to let that bargain go!

 

[Dan Turner]

I exchanged a few emails with Tom Tom Audio today, and they got me thinking about a Supernait. They have one in the 'pre-loved' selection for £1850. The only trouble would be arranging a demo as I'm no where near St. Albans. Then I checked my local dealer and they have an ex-demo one for £1750!

So I think I'm going to arrange a home demo, and If I prefer it to my current set-up then I can sell my Dacmagic, Creek OBH12, Arcam P35, Arcam P38 and 3 * Chord Chorus 2 interconnects, which should go a long way towards the cost of the Supernait.

Any thoughts on how the Supernait is likely to compare to my current gear?

 

[Andrew Everard]

I'd suggest the SuperNait would compare very favourably, though of course these things are a matter of taste. And you could sell the Dacmagic, too...

 

[chebby]

Dan Turner:Any thoughts on how the Supernait is likely to compare to my current gear?

If it is anything like the Nait XS you will probably just forget about comparisons with your current gear in about 2 minutes. (Looks promising with those PMC TB2+ speakers in your signature.)

Or you will hate it.

My money is on the former.

 

[Dan Turner]

Thanks Andrew and Chebby, your comments are encouraging and given that I can do a home trial, there's nothing to lose!

I shall report back on my findings.

 

[Dan Turner]

Actually - can I use my 3m Atlas Hyper 2.0 speaker cables with the Supernait? I know Naim amps can be rather particular about their speaker cables...

 

[Dan Turner]

Gutted - I called up my dealer this morning - someone had a demo scheduled for the SuperNait today and they ended up taking it! The one at TomTom has also gone! Full price £2450 so I think I'm going to be saving up some more.

The guy at TomTom said that the Nait XS was basically a Supernait with the digital elements removed. Is that right? It doesn't add up to me because both the power output and transient current output of the Supernait is higher, which I know isn't necessarily an indication of quality, but it does at least suggest the power amplifier in the Supernait is more highly specified.

 

[Frank Harvey]

The XS will use certain elements ffrom the SuperNait, but it's not going to sound the same.

 

[Dan Turner]

OK - so my dealer got hold of a demo SuperNait from another branch and I'm trying out at the moment.

Compared to Dac magic>creek obh-12>Arcam P35&P38 (all connected with Chord chorus 2s) it stackes up very favourably indeed! The bass is just awesomely tight and deep and forceful. I certainly didn't think my existing bi-amp set-up lacked oomph, but the Naim has a far greater capacity to deliver big dynamic swings.

I really didn't expect it, given how revealing the creek was compared with the pre section of my previous Arcam A32, but the Naim is even more detailed and revealing. I think the fast, up-front character is exactly what I was looking for and I get the impression that the Naim and PMC speakers make a really complementary combo.

This is after having it for a day - my dealer reckoned it would need to be left switched on for at least 2 or 3 to sound it's best, so can't wait to hear what's in store.

I've got it until next Tuesday, I just hope the lead time on ordering me one isn't too long - not sure how i'm going to go back to my old amp, in the mean time....

 

[Anonymous]

Would these observations about older Naim compared with new also apply to other UK brands such as Arcam? Are the manufacturers responding to changes in taste (or driving changes)? I have Arcam Alpha 10s and have thought about upgrading to more recent / new Arcam or Naim kit at some point.

 

[Dan Turner]

Paulwbm:Would these observations about older Naim compared with new also apply to other UK brands such as Arcam? Are the manufacturers responding to changes in taste (or driving changes)? I have Arcam Alpha 10s and have thought about upgrading to more recent / new Arcam or Naim kit at some point.

I think generally it's true that manufacturers do respond to changes in taste or understand more about consumer preferences over time and as the markets for certain products and the products themselves mature. I think a big part of it might be that through the process of continuous development, if a manufacturer is getting it right their products should move gradually from any overt 'house sound' towards neutrality.

I've owned Arcam products for years and when I had my last all-arcam system about 18 months ago - a CD 37 & A35+P35, it was considerably less warm and cuddly that my first (an Alpha 8SE CD & Alpha 8+8P amp) - but then again I guess that could be to do with the fact that the newer system was considerably better, although the observation is backed up by experiences listening to a friend's CD192 & A90, which I guess sits somewhere in the middle quality-wise.

I have had very little experience with Naim kit, except for a brief listen to the NAC72/Hi-Cap/NAP250 that I was considering buying, as mentioned earlier in the thread, and the SuperNait I'm trialling now, and they were/are in such different systems/rooms as to make any comparisons meaningless.

In general I wanted to try Naim, as although successive upgrades to my amp had improved things considerably, as I got used to each change I still felt there was something lacking, and that it was probably down to the Arcam power amps still being a little bit too warm and cuddly. Based on the reputation, I thought that Naim might provide the extra punch and drive I was looking for, and that certainly seems to have been borne out.

In terms of upgrading from your current Alpha 10 set-up - If you're happy with the sound then going for newer Arcam components is probably going to give you an incremental improvement but retain the overall character. A switch to Naim is going to give you a faster, punchier more up-front sound. Just depends whether you prefer that or not, I've decided I most certainly do.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Dan Turner:I've got it until next Tuesday, I just hope the lead time on ordering me one isn't too long - not sure how i'm going to go back to my old amp, in the mean time....

The SuperNait is quite a cracker isn't it.

How quick you'll get one will depend. If the branch you borrowed it from isn't a Naim dealer, then technically they can't supply you one at all. If they have stock it'll be within a week. If it's out of stock, it could be 1-3 weeks depending if they're waiting for any specific parts. Currently the DACs are about a 4 week wait.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Paulwbm:Would these observations about older Naim compared with new also apply to other UK brands such as Arcam? Are the manufacturers responding to changes in taste (or driving changes)? I have Arcam Alpha 10s and have thought about upgrading to more recent / new Arcam or Naim kit at some point.

Usually it won't apply to other manufacturers, but in the case of Arcam it does, only the opposite. Naim used to be extremely up front and in your face, and have now softened things a little. Arcam used to be extremely laid back, warm, and smooth with their Alpha range (excluding the Alpha 10). Now they've perked things up a little. It's still smoother and more laid back than most, but they've took a little of the warmth out of things, so things are a little more neutral. It would be cool if Arcam had a switch on their stuff that switches between "now" and "then", 'then' being their old sound - lots of people liked that, and I think a lot of people would like it now too

 

[Dan Turner]

FrankHarveyHiFi:
Dan Turner:I've got it until next Tuesday, I just hope the lead time on ordering me one isn't too long - not sure how i'm going to go back to my old amp, in the mean time....

The SuperNait is quite a cracker isn't it.

How quick you'll get one will depend. If the branch you borrowed it from isn't a Naim dealer, then technically they can't supply you one at all. If they have stock it'll be within a week. If it's out of stock, it could be 1-3 weeks depending if they're waiting for any specific parts. Currently the DACs are about a 4 week wait.

Thankfully they are a Naim dealer so fingers crossed!