New Amp Time..almost!

[paulkebab]

Hi guys, well the funds and time are almost on me for a new and final upgrade amplifier. Whatever I buy will be a good upgrade to the trusty Yamaha AS500, and here is what I will need :

Minimum 150WPC into 8R

Tone controls, with or without loudness but hopefully with

Headphone socket

The Yamaha's biggest issue with me is a lack of low-level detail; medium and high levels are wonderful but just start knocking at the door of the amp's cut-off point. Of course, the transmission line speakers are not easy for the amp to live with at high levels so I think a good 50% + increase in power is needed.

I don't need a turntable input, DAC or line out functions, 4 or 5 RCA inputs will suffice. I play all my music from a WDTV / hard drive and CD via Arcam DAC on optical and coax out, ripped stuff is WAV or FLAC plus more than a few mp3 files, and sometimes I listen to the good ol' radio. I listen through the speakers with all levels flat but at lower volumes I need to up the treble a bit, mainly to increase upper detail, sometimes the bass needs lowering a touch at medium levels; with headphones its the loudness that I usually use to tone the mid down a bit; I might even keep the Yam to use as a headphone amp. I do have my analytical moments but mostly just sit back and enjoy the music. I will consider amp/pre-amp combinations and valve/transistor/hybrid amps although I don't believe a valve amp will be suitable, my budget is £2.5k.

I need to be auditioning some hardware and the only amps I've seen which might tick the boxes is the Cambridge Audio Azure 851E/W combo and the Vincent SV237 hybrid which is very tempting. However, I have heard none and therefore ask those who have experience of these things, and who guided me to the delights of Oppo and Fostex to guide me again to a shortlist of audio nirvana (or thereabouts) - thank you!

Paul

 

[FennerMachine]

In a similar boat to you trying to decide on a new amp.
I demoed Cambridge Audio Azur 851a and it was detailed yet easy to listen too.
If the pre / power is the same but better then they will be very good.
Worth a demo me thinks.

 

[CnoEvil]

My advice is not to get hung up on power, but the ability to nearly double the Watts as Impedance halves...which is the sign of a good power supply.

Brands I would consider are: Ayre, Musical Fidelity, Pathos, Arcam, Rega, Creek, Electrocompaniet, Hegel and Abrahamsen.....or even Icon Audio.

 

[FennerMachine]

Words of wisdom from CnoEvil.
Demo the two amps that meet your requirements but also try a few others that double into 4 ohms.
I think the Cambridge Audio amps get close to doubling into 4 ohms.
You can almost afford an Icon Audio ST 60.
They might even still have a special on a pair of monoblock power amps.

 

[rainsoothe]

Hi. If you have arcam DAC and need no added frills, then you need to hear Naim. They got amazing power supplies, and the Supernait 2 is a beast.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Do you want to spend?

Good quality amps with very good power supplies are abrahamsen 2.0 up £899 now its 70w rms but has a power supply about 3 times larger than amps its price range.
Another good amp is the marantz pm8005 around £600 will also be a nice upgrade.

Higher up the price ladder and very good quality would be the hegel h160 that has the 150w your after but as a built in dac and does not have multitudes of rca inputa as focus is on digital. The low level impact and detail your after you will find but your looking at over £2000.

If i were in your shoes id go for an abrahamsen

 

[drummerman]

Quad's new Artera Pre/CD player and matching power amplifier look and certainly measure/reviewed very well in the latest HifiNews&RR.

A combination of cyrus Stereo 200 power amplifier and cyrus pre/dac would probably be very nice too.

If you don't need that much power and like a more 'substantial' look, perhaps Abrahamsen is worth a look as may be Canor's TP134, a unique looking valve amplifier which also reviewed superbly on several occasions.

BelCanto make nice systems, then there are Hegels, Densen etc etc etc.

 

[Al ears]

Not too sure how many of the suggested amps have tone controls.

Not many do these days. The Abrahamsen and others certainly do not. I could throw in a lot of suggestions but not many if I actually stuck to the OPs requirements.

 

[CnoEvil]

Not too sure how many of the suggested amps have tone controls.

Not many do these days. The Abrahamsen and others certainly do not. I could throw in a lot of suggestions but not many if I actually stuck to the OPs requirements.

This is true, but IME a well balanced system doesn't need them.

 

[philpot1001]

I personally dont necessarily agree a good blanced system doesnt need tone controls....it doesnt need them if all your recordings have super mastering. Frankly a LOT of them dont. I dont think i would want a superb system for 30% of my music, that makes 70% of my music a pain to listen to.

For me - i totally get the requirement for tone controls, and when i finally get around to upgrading i think i will err on the side of caution and require them. The PM8005 looks like a good bet, even comes with midrange tone.

*EDIT - caveat: I will probably audition a super audiophile system without tone controls first with the poorest recordings i have, and see if it copes.....if it does i am prepared to eat my own words and plum for an amp minus tone controls. But if i feel it makes the experience more enjoyable, tone controls are ok with me.

 

[drummerman]

Not too sure how many of the suggested amps have tone controls.

Not many do these days. The Abrahamsen and others certainly do not. I could throw in a lot of suggestions but not many if I actually stuck to the OPs requirements.

Ah, missed that.

Scrap all my suggestion.

Marantz usually do and a second hand Luxman may do the job. Denon's, even larger ones have them sometimes but 150W is not common there. Why 150 Watts?

Basically, its more a jap thing.

 

[CnoEvil]

I personally dont necessarily agree a good blanced system doesnt need tone controls....it doesnt need them if all your recordings have super mastering. Frankly a LOT of them dont. I dont think i would want a superb system for 30% of my music, that makes 70% of my music a pain to listen to.

For me - i totally get the requirement for tone controls, and when i finally get around to upgrading i think i will err on the side of caution and require them. The PM8005 looks like a good bet, even comes with midrange tone.

*EDIT - caveat: I will probably audition a super audiophile system without tone controls first with the poorest recordings i have, and see if it copes.....if it does i am prepared to eat my own words and plum for an amp minus tone controls. But if i feel it makes the experience more enjoyable, tone controls are ok with me.

Have you ever heard a good Valve or SS Class A amp? Also hybrid amps like Pathos or Croft are a good shout, along with the likes of Electro/Abrahamsen, which are excellent as they have a high bias in Class A.

Speakers like Harbeth, Spendor Classic, Opera, Sonus Faber, Rega and even Kef R Series, seem to have a very natural sounding mid range and don't accentuate bad recordings in the same way as other more analytical speakers.

The Source also has an important role to play as well, but probably less so in cheaper systems.

TBF. The above examples are on the costly side.

 

[philpot1001]

TBH and in fairness, the only audiophile amps i have heard are Arcam ones (not by choice, just because they were the ones set up). On my upgrade shortlist at present are Marantz PM8005, but also Abrhamesen (?) Up.....the only difficulty with the Abrhamsen is obvs it will have to be auditoned on a returns policy. I also think the weak point in my system is actually the speakers not the Amp as they are bass heavy so cloud the mids, and i am considering the KEF R500's - however not being able to afford both it complicates my personal upgrade path.

Regarding source, im pretty happy my CD player can get most out of the music, albeit maybe missing a final 2-3%. however long term i am playing with the idea of adding an external DAC (MDAC, or pioneer U-05 etc). I have heard mixed things about external DAC's and the Marantz CD-6005, some people have said they cannot hear any benefit whatsoever with the MDAC for example, which does make me think my source is probably as good as i need.

 

[Al ears]

Not too sure how many of the suggested amps have tone controls.

Not many do these days. The Abrahamsen and others certainly do not. I could throw in a lot of suggestions but not many if I actually stuck to the OPs requirements.

This is true, but IME a well balanced system doesn't need them.

Agreed, but perhaps OP does not have a well balanced system which is why he does need them.

 

[Al ears]

Not too sure how many of the suggested amps have tone controls.

Not many do these days. The Abrahamsen and others certainly do not. I could throw in a lot of suggestions but not many if I actually stuck to the OPs requirements.

Ah, missed that.

Scrap all my suggestion.

Marantz usually do and a second hand Luxman may do the job. Denon's, even larger ones have them sometimes but 150W is not common there. Why 150 Watts?

Basically, its more a jap thing.

You weren't the only one. Good call on the second hand Luxman though. Or any Luxman come to that. Or possibly the upper range from Yamaha.

 

[SteveR750]

If the majority of your listening is from FLAC can you not use a dsp to effect tone eq? That way your amp choices open up massively. Dsp is far less destructive than analogue shaping in the preamp.

 

[ID.]

Another vote for Luxman. No idea of the markup you face, but that budget would be just about enough to pick up their top of the range integrated here. If you can find yourself an L-507u or L-507uX you'll be set. Don't get hung up on the fact that it only has 100 watts. It will grab most speakers by the balls and pull them into line.

 

[paulkebab]

for all the suggestions, just gotta filter out the definite 'no's' and go from there. The Cambridge gives 200W into 8R and 350 into 4R which would point out a good power supply, if I'm thinking right; I hadn't thought of that TBH, and from what you're all saying a 100W amp with a top power supply will give closer to its rated output than a 100W amp with a lower quality PSU which does make sense. The 150W figure I've quoted is a roundabout number, the Yam gets frighteningly good and loud but I can find many a track I have to absolutely nail to the walls and make those IPL transmissions work hard but I can see the cut-out start to flicker which is akin to being left high and dry. Our listening room isn't massive but acoustically it's fantastic for reasons unknown, everything just 'works' even at very high volumes.

Now, to the point of EQ, I would definitely consider an amp/dsp but I would need major guidance on that as it's something I'm a bit green on (although in the latter 70's I had an Aiwa 60WPC amp fed from a 12 band graphic EQ, always going 'down' with the EQ!). My music may indeed sound perfect, ripped to bit-perfection but my ears are 56 years old and have heard a lot of concerts. Most stuff sounds great, especially the more recent Floyd material, when things are right it's a system which can bring me close to tears of enjoyment - yes I really can lose it sometimes!

I think a valve amp may sound too 'lush' but the Vincent is a hybrid valve class A going to transistor class B over 10WPC and delivers 150WPC @ 8R and 250WPC @ 4R which sounds like a good PSU comparable to the CA 851W. The valves can be changed to give a different sound for the first stage and they also have a home audition system for their products; so all things considered the Vincent and CA are definite 'try at home' units especially as no-one will demo with IPL speakers so they are my top two so far - and they both have tone controls . I'm actually pretty relieved to know someone on here, FennerMachine, has heard the CA amp and given a good report of it as no-one seems to know much about it.

OK so now you got my shortlist so far, I'm gonna check out all your suggestions.

Thanks again - Paul

PS the IPL speakers are similar to the PMC twenty24 but use a bigger 8" driver and a Fountek Cd3.0 ribbon tweeter.

 

[CnoEvil]

I think a valve amp may sound too 'lush'..

The best general advice I can give you is, don't make assumptions - not about power rating; not about how Valve Amps sound; not about Class D; not about star ratings in reviews or fan based support for products, that happen to be flavour of the month....so don't rule anything in (or out), until you've personally heard it.

I have a 35W amp, that through speakers with a Sensitivity of around 90 dBs, goes louder in a large room than my ears can handle.

The notion that all Valve amps sound lush, dark and syrupy, is misplaced. They can sound exciting, dramatic and dynamic, but may need a little more care over speaker suitability.

 

[iceman16]

I think a valve amp may sound too 'lush'..

The best general advice I can give you is, don't make assumptions - not about power rating; not about how Valve Amps sound; not about Class D; not about star ratings in reviews or fan based support for products, that happen to be flavour of the month....so don't rule anything in (or out), until you've personally heard it.

I have a 35W amp, that through speakers with a Sensitivity of around 90 dBs, goes louder in a large room than my ears can handle.

The notion that all Valve amps sound lush, dark and syrupy, is misplaced. They can sound exciting, dramatic and dynamic, but may need a little more care over speaker suitability.

+1 ...I just bought an Arcam A29 rated at 80w/pc but compared to my AMS 35i (35w/pc). There's no contest. Dont get me wrong ..the Arcam is a very good amp at this price point (soundwise and the AMS is my reference in auditioning)

 

[drummerman]

i had a demo with a cambridge amp the £800 one and thought it sounded better then the rosken k3 , arcam which are a lot more money and like you i wanted to upgrade my amp and in the end i have kept with marantz which will be the pm 8005 which i am waiting to hit my door step but i just liked marantz's which gives you that warm sound . but most say on here demo like made even take your speakers to the dealers as its so had to make the right choices sometimes but if it was me i would stick with a proper amp thats made for the job of music and not a film av amp as i am not saying they sound rubbish with music they sound ok but were is the money being spent with a av amp are on the film sound track i think but saying that the arcam top av with power amps sound good with both but that just me .

... I hope not

 

[Blacksabbath25]

i had a demo with a cambridge amp the £800 one and thought it sounded better then the rosken k3 , arcam which are a lot more money and like you i wanted to upgrade my amp and in the end i have kept with marantz which will be the pm 8005 which i am waiting to hit my door step but i just liked marantz's which gives you that warm sound . but most say on here demo like made even take your speakers to the dealers as its so had to make the right choices sometimes but if it was me i would stick with a proper amp thats made for the job of music and not a film av amp as i am not saying they sound rubbish with music they sound ok but were is the money being spent with a av amp are on the film sound track i think but saying that the arcam top av with power amps sound good with both but that just me .

 

[Blacksabbath25]

ok its coming in the post lol

 

[paulkebab]

is tempting especially with its 3 tone controls. However the power output may be an issue for me especially as into 4R it musters less than 50% extra of an 8R load. Does this point to a power supply 'thing' as this may be the problem I have with my Yamaha.

Had a look at the Luxman.. a definite short-lister but do they make those in black??

Lugging my speakers about would not be a good idea due to weight and size!

 

[ID.]

No Luxman in black. That would be heresy. Champagne gold for you son.