Network player question

[Womaz]

I am very happy with my system below but when reading another post on here someone commented that a streamer really does not improve the sound quality of music if it is stored on a NAS or PC.

Is this right?

i was always under the impression that it included the DAC, which depending on how good it was , improved the SQ

Is it worth paying £1500 plus for a network player when you can get one much cheaper.

i know there is a law if diminishing returns on most hi fi , but is it greater with network players?

Sorry if this is a basic question, I am no hi if buff, but I love my music and I am keen to find out more

 

[matt49]

This is one area where people have very different views. Well, that's hi-fi, I guess.

One view would be that a PC/Mac/NAS, connected to a decent async DAC via USB, will provide as clean a stream as any hi-fi streamer.

Others will say you need to optimize the PC/Mac/NAS to make the signal from it as clean as possible, i.e. by stopping all other processes, making sure it has a clean power supply, defeating all the digital processing in its soundcard, and using solid state storage.

Others believe that hi-fi streamers, designed solely for the task of streaming music and using high-quality components and casing, offer audible advantages.

My feeling is that what you're paying for by spending upwards of £1500 on a streamer/DAC is nicely built and styled casework and a good user interface, but not improved sound.

:cheers:

Matt

 

[Womaz]

I am so hoping that someone strongly disagrees with you.

thank you for the reply though.

 

[CnoEvil]

I would use a Linn DS as a benchmark, and then see if other options measure up. If you can get the same or better SQ for less money, then you have your answer.

 

[matt49]

I am so hoping that someone strongly disagrees with you.

thank you for the reply though.

No worries.

I haven't used the M1 CLIC. On the face of it, it doesn't seem to be overpriced for what you get: streaming hard- and software, a DAC, and a preamp, with good connectivity. How do you find the user interface? Can you control it from a smartphone or tablet?

:cheers:

Matt

 

[Womaz]

Yes I have the app on my I pad and I phone. It's not fantastic , but I do love the fact I can browse my collection easily. For me this makes the purchase worth while. But cheaper players probably have the same facilities.

the question was more about the fact that I was convinced that a streamer would either match or beat the SQ from my CD player. To be honest I could not see a difference.

My. CDs are ripped in Flac format........and the SQ is excellent but that may be down to my amp and speakers rather than the CLIC

 

[Womaz]

Sorry that last post is a tad misleading, I meant when I bought my system the dealer convinced me that' a network player was the way to go and that I would not lose any SQ if I ripped my CDs in FLAC.

I kept the CD player and like I said above I could not hear any different either way.

 

[busb]

It doesn't really matter if the music is fom the original CD played through a CDP, has been ripped to a Windows PC or a MAC or played back via a streamer, provided that any method is bit-perfect; they can't improve on the original CD's SQ. This doesn't mean that spending serious money on a DAC won't improve the SQ but only a HiRes version or different mastering could improve on the CD when played through any given system using the same DAC.

A CD is a spinning physical medium that requires error corection hence has redundancy built in, getting the stream of ones & zeros is actually easier from a hard drive or memory stick without errors (the ripping process can re-read parts of a disc afterall). All a streamer is is a dedicated computer (often running an embedded version of Windows) optimised for the task without loads of unrelated stuff competing for processor cycles. I gave up with Windows on a laptop for streaming so now use a MAC Mini as part of my stereo - it's silent from my listening position & can be connected to my plasma to browse menues in both iTunes & Spotify. Flac files get converted to Apple lossless.

I don't know how many streamers have video out to a screen or TV but its usually much easier to use an app from a phone or pad, making a larger screen pretty pointless. I use Apple's Remote app for iTunes. Some folk are quite happy to build/buy a small quiet PC rather than a streamer.

 

[busb]

Sorry that last post is a tad misleading, I meant when I bought my system the dealer convinced me that' a network player was the way to go and that I would not lose any SQ if I ripped my CDs in FLAC.

I kept the CD player and like I said above I could not hear any different either way.

Then job done! What you can now do is download music rather than just ripping from CD. You can also download HiRes so you can determine if they are worthwhile or not.

 

[adamrobertshaw]

I always listen to a new CD on my CD player / CD transport as they're my best sources.

Then after a month or so I'll switch to listen to it on streamed FLAC from a NAS or Mac ALAC via USB.

I don't think my streamer or Mac sound as good as the CD player / transport but they're not far off.

For me, the streamer or Mac are just more convenient and can be controlled via a tablet or mobile phone from the sofa.

When I bought my streamer 2.5 years ago, my dealer still thought that CD was the best and streamers were a bit of a fad.

These days the dealer thinks streamers are much better but usually points to high end units from the likes of Marantz and Chord as providing SQ as good as a decent CD player

 

[Womaz]

Not sure if I have confused you there. Not much of the music I buy is available to download as hi res, so I will continue to buy CDs.

If I download music from I tunes and play it on my system it does lack the quality of a Cd especially in the bass , also sounds tinny.

 

[Womaz]

I always listen to a new CD on my CD player / CD transport as they're my best sources.

Then after a month or so I'll switch to listen to it on streamed FLAC from a NAS or Mac ALAC via USB.

I don't think my streamer or Mac sound as good as the CD player / transport but they're not far off.

For me, the streamer or Mac are just more convenient and can be controlled via a tablet or mobile phone from the sofa.

When I bought my streamer 2.5 years ago, my dealer still thought that CD was the best and streamers were a bit of a fad.

These days the dealer thinks streamers are much better but usually points to high end units from the likes of Marantz and Chord as providing SQ as good as a decent CD player

i honestly can't tell the difference between my CD player and my CLIC, maybe it's because I am 5O and the hearing is not as good as it once was

 

[Al ears]

I always listen to a new CD on my CD player / CD transport as they're my best sources.

Then after a month or so I'll switch to listen to it on streamed FLAC from a NAS or Mac ALAC via USB.

I don't think my streamer or Mac sound as good as the CD player / transport but they're not far off.

For me, the streamer or Mac are just more convenient and can be controlled via a tablet or mobile phone from the sofa.

When I bought my streamer 2.5 years ago, my dealer still thought that CD was the best and streamers were a bit of a fad.

These days the dealer thinks streamers are much better but usually points to high end units from the likes of Marantz and Chord as providing SQ as good as a decent CD player

i honestly can't tell the difference between my CD player and my CLIC, maybe it's because I am 5O and the hearing is not as good as it once was

I don't think its down to age alone.

I'm a tad older than you but as far as my last medical shows my hearing is still very good.

I've determined I'd have to go hi-res download to hear any appreciable difference from my CD set-up, its just a shame most of what I want to listen to is not available as a hi-res download. Until it is then the CD player / universal media player stays in my system.

 

[busb]

Not sure if I have confused you there. Not much of the music I buy is available to download as hi res, so I will continue to buy CDs.

If I download music from I tunes and play it on my system it does lack the quality of a Cd especially in the bass , also sounds tinny.

I can't tell the difference between my CDs & their ripped copies in iTunes (both go through my M-DAC). I suppose some of the music I like is available in HiRes but would need a MAC app to play them back. may get around to it at some point but have been put off much HiRes 'cos some of it's merely been up-converted from 44.1k which is criminal in my book!

 

[Womaz]

[/quote]

I can't tell the difference between my CDs & their ripped copies in iTunes (both go through my M-DAC). I suppose some of the music I like is available in HiRes but would need a MAC app to play them back. may get around to it at some point but have been put off much HiRes 'cos some of it's merely been up-converted from 44.1k which is criminal in my book!

[/quote]

that is interesting. When I play my iPod through my CLIC there is a huge drop in SQ.

 

[matt49]

that is interesting. When I play my iPod through my CLIC there is a huge drop in SQ.

There could be three reasons for that. Your iPod may be storing tracks at a lower bit rate. And your iPod doesn't have a digital output, so it'll be using its internal DAC, which should be far less good than the DAC in the M1 CLIC. And then presumably you're using the iPod's headphone output (unless you have a dedicated dock) which isn't really designed for output to a hifi system.

Matt

 

[Womaz]

Surely it's because my NAS stores my music in FLAC as opposed to I tunes which is at 288kb ?

I also thought that if I played something through my CLIC the CLICs DAC would come into use.

Tell you what I learn so much from these forums, and to be honest the iPod is not an issue as it's only used when I am on my hols now

 

[matt49]

Surely it's because my NAS stores my music in FLAC as opposed to I tunes which is at 288kb ?

Yes, that's what I meant when I said the iPod would store tracks at a lower bitrate.

Cheers

Matt

 

[James7]

Surely it's because my NAS stores my music in FLAC as opposed to I tunes which is at 288kb ?

Yes, that's what I meant when I said the iPod would store tracks at a lower bitrate.

Cheers

Matt

iTunes can work with lossless ALAC as well as WAV so there's no reason why you should compromise sound quality on your iPod - unless you need to cram more music onto its hard drive than it can take. I store my music on my iPod Classic in Lossless ALAC - with 160GB memory I don't need to store at low bit rates. And although I almost never use it as a source for serious home listening, when I do I run the digital signal into my Marantz SACD player's DAC bypassing the iPod's internal DAC and it sounds fine. I am pretty sure the CLIC offers the same ability to take the digital signal directly, in which case I imagine that a noticeably inferior sound quality is because, having ripped your music losslessly, you have then set iTunes for whatever reason to convert to a lower bit rate for transfer to iPod. Of course, if you only listen to your iPod on holiday you might not be too worried about this. Personally, although I primarily use my IPod for listening as I walk to work or travelling by train, the sound quality of one or two things stored at a low bit rate because I have downloaded them from the iTunes Store is so obviously inferior to my lossless rips that I find it impacts negatively on my enjoyment of the music.

 

[davedotco]

The thing to remember is that computer audio is different from conventional hi-fi. You need to optimise the computer playback both in terms of hardware and software if you want the best results and this requires a rather different knowledge set than that required for conventional hi-fi.

For example, one poster suggests that his 'rips' sound less good than his CD player. This is, in theory at least, is the wrong way round, the rips should sound better, so it suggests that the system is not properly optimised.

It is often difficult with computer/digital audio as it is often not that easy to determine what is making the difference, changing just one item in the signal path is often quite difficult, you need to be quite careful about what is being compared.

 

[hone_u2]

Any DAC, whether inside a streamer or standalone, will definitely do something to the SQ, in most cases it will improve the sound. Though I was in the same dilemma when deciding to make a transition to computer audio... Mac mini into DAC vs NAS into Streamer.

There were some streamers I auditioned that I thought were better than the asynchronous DACs... But in a lot of cases I felt DACs were just as good. I bought what is in my signature, and I'm extremely happy with the sound!

As several things in hifi this is extremely relative to your system, especially with computer audio as there are so many variables involved... The player you use, the quality of your rips (whether you use iTunes or bit perfect) , how good the server software on your NAS is, how quiet it is etc etc...

I don't think id regret buying a streamer if I were you...

 

[HDNumpty]

I much prefer my streamer to the previous CD and then iPod/digital dock/DAC system I had before. It also sounds better all things considered.

I also like he track information display and usability - no messing around with discs.

I think the main disadvantage with a DAC only is that have to involve a computer somewhere wired or wireless, whereas with a streamer once you've ripped or (hi-res) downloaded your music you can take the computer out of the occasion altogether.

Also with most streamers they double as a high-quality DAC anyway, so you've the best of both worlds.

as other posters have said you need to optimise your software I.e. Lossless rips are a basic minimum with even a modest midrange system

 

[Alec]

Lossless rips are a basic minimum with even a modest midrange system

Mileage varies on this, to put it mildly.

 

[hone_u2]

http://www.audiostream.com/content/getting-started-computer-audio-part-1-hardware#streamers

this article talks about streamers and DACS...

 

[Womaz]

So it appears that most people think the quality of the streamer does matter.

Like I said above I rip my CDs via DB Poweramp in FLAC format, which I presume is good quality.

I am very happy with the SQ from my Musical Fidelity/ PMC set up.

I Kept the Arcam CD player in my system until this weekend, it's took me two years to send it to the subs bench.

I have done numerous blind tests myself between the Arcam and my CLIC streamer and I really could not tell any difference at all. Could not say any one was better than the other.

Some great posts on here, many thanks.