Network player for CD and DAT sourced music

[RayP]

I am very much a beginner with this type of technology although I have had hi-fi systems for over 40 years.

Here is my situation. Back in 1992 I bought a Denon DTR-2000 DAT player to archive all my vinyl. I have around 30 2 hour tapes filled with music. All the tracks are indexed so I can access them reasonably quickly by entering a track number. They're not named of course. That technology didn't exist then. The music was sampled at 48kHz. I also have a modest collection of around 50 CDs.

The DAT player still works but should it fail then I have a serious problem since it will be impossible to replace. I would effectively lose a large part of my music collection. My CD player is an Arcam DV79 DVD player but is an excellent player in its own right.

The rest of my system is a Yamaha RXA3010 AV amp and B&W CM4s.

What I would like to do is transfer all this music onto a network media player. I have a Synology DS212j NAS box with 2x 2Tb Hard drives in a Raid 1 configuration. I use it for PC backups and there is about 1.2Tb free. Would that be sufficient to store my music collection?

What is the best way of getting the music from the DAT tapes to a player? Would I have to transfer it to a PC via a sound card which I guess will end up as WAV files? Those are uncompressed I believe. I also understand if I go that route I would need to name each track and album it belongs to. Would it then be possible to transfer it to the NAS box and download artwork for those albums? I'm sure transferring from CD will be a lot more straight forward but some guidance would be appreciated.

Given all that info could you recommend a decent player? I would be unlikely to use Spotify and will probably continue to buy CDs although I wouldn't rule Spotify out completely. Budget is up to £1000 but depending on advice I could go higher.

Thanks!

 

[cheeseboy]

what dat player do you have?

In theory, you should be able to go digital from the DAT to a pc, but you may need to purchase a soundcard that has digital in if you don't have that facility already.

1.2tb should be more than enough space to store all your music. If you use something like FLAC instead of Wav files, you can tag them with the correct details (unfortunately that would be a manual job) and it would take up less space, but you would not lose any quality.

Transferring from cd is a lot less painless, it's more of a one click operation.

 

[RayP]

Thanks cheeseboy. It's a Denon DTR-2000. Flagship player in its day.

I did ask on another forum about transferring from DAT and it seems I would need a sound card with SPDIF for the transfer. I presume the DAT recordings would have to transfer as WAV or would I have the FLAC option to save adding to my workload?

I don't mind the work in manually tagging the tracks. Think of it as a labour of love and being retired has its benefits. *biggrin*

Are there any tutorials on What Hi-Fi how the transfer process works?

 

[cheeseboy]

Thanks cheeseboy. It's a Denon DTR-2000. Flagship player in its day.

I did ask on another forum about transferring from DAT and it seems I would need a sound card with SPDIF for the transfer. I presume the DAT recordings would have to transfer as WAV or would I have the FLAC option to save adding to my workload?

I don't mind the work in manually tagging the tracks. Think of it as a labour of love and being retired has its benefits. *biggrin*

Are there any tutorials on What Hi-Fi how the transfer process works?

It totally depends what you use to record the information from the DAT. Something free like audacity will allow you to record, and then you could theoretically save as FLAC from there without having to save to WAV then convert to FLAC.

It's basically the exact same process as if you wanted to transfer from Vinyl to a computer, but replacing the vinyl system with the DAT. So maybe look for some guides for that if you can't find anything foe DAT specifically. The only difference would be to make sure the recording software was set to take it's input from the SPDIF instead of the analogue ins.

And yes, you'd need somthing with SPDIF in. You might have better luck looking at some of the pro-audio external boxes instead of an internal soundcard, as whilst digital out is quite common, digital ins aren't.

 

[RayP]

Audacity sounds good and I'll go with that. As for the transfer from DAT to hard drive this SoundBlaster Z looks like it will do the job. It had TOSLINK in and out http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=SC-088-CL&groupid=701&catid=11

I assume S/PDIF and TosLink are identical?

OKay, that's the recording side taken care of. Thank you for that. Any suggestions on suitable players? Are there advantages to one with a HDD in or not? If I use my NAS box for storage it would mean relying on a home network for listening but that shouldn't be a major issue with HomePlugs.

Cambridge and Cyrus have good reviews but a larger display would be nice. Thoughts?

 

[cheeseboy]

you can actually connect the synology up to a dac, and use the synology music player software to do all of your playback. You'd just then need something to control it with, like and idevice or smartphone.

There's a few people on here that do that with good results.

 

[RayP]

You'll appreciate all this new technology takes a little time to understand. I'm of the old school where you bought records or CDs, brought them home and played them on a CD /record deck. It's taking me a while to understand all the options available to me.

I've looked at the software on my NAS box and I've installed Audio Station. So what you're saying is I don't need to spend £1K on a Cyrus player. I would need to buy a DAC (recomendations?) and that would take an ethernet connection with a digital cable connected to my Yamaha amp. I do have a iPad Air (Gen 1) and with a suitable app that could be used for choosing music could it?

Forgive me but I was always under the impression the more you paid for something the better the sound. How can companies charge so much for a network player if I can achieve the same results with just a DAC box and my existing kit?

 

[cheeseboy]

Forgive me but I was always under the impression the more you paid for something the better the sound. How can companies charge so much for a network player if I can achieve the same results with just a DAC box and my existing kit?

I guess it used to be when everything was analogue, but in the digital age, it's not the case anymore, although there are a lot of people who still apply analogue thinking to digital, and it just doesn't work that way.

 

[cheeseboy]

if I remember correctly, you would plug the dac in to the synology via USB. Or you can get a usb > spdif convertor and then plug that in to your dac.

However, your amp looks as though it already has network capabilities - I don't know if you've looked in to that. So in theory, you connect the nas up to the network as usual. Then plug your amp in to the network. Then install a DNLA server application on to your synology, which will then allow the amp to see the music on your NAS. You can then control (via an ipad or whatever) the amp, which will playback the music stored on your NAS.

I appreciate it's a bit to get your head around as there's so many options, but initially I would suggest doing it that way, as it wouldn't cost you much at all, just the cost of the soundcard to record the stuff.

Once you get yourself up and running, then have think about if the sound suits you or not and then maybe think about extra equipment.

So, the options I would suggest would be:

Nas > Network | Amp > network - control the amp with this http://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio-visual/aventage/rx-a3010_black_u/ (least cost)

or

Nas > spdif/usb > dac (optional as you could take an spdif from the nas directly to the amp) > analogue from dac in to amp and then control the nas with the synology software.

I can see the amp has a usb port, but I think that's just for storage devices such as hard drives and usb sticks, so it wouldn't take a feed directly from the nas.

edit: here's the instructions on getting DNLA up and running on your NAS, so that your amp can see the music stored on it.

https://www.synology.com/en-uk/knowledgebase/tutorials/452

 

[RayP]

Cheeseboy. Thanks. You've been tremendously helpful. Regarding my options... My NAS box is upstairs and hi-fi etc. is downstairs. But if I connect RX-3010 to the network via homeplug then it will be acccessible to the NAS box hopefully and vice-versa.

You've given me a lot to digest and I'll certainly try ripping a CD to my NAS box and see how it sounds on my system. My only cost at this point is a homeplug and a soundcard with TOSLINK / S/PDIF and that can always be utilised on a desktop PC once this exercise is over.

Have a virtual beer on me.

 

[RayP]

Been busy over the last 2 hours. Ordered the OEM version of Creative Sound Blaster Z with a 2.5m Toslink cable.

Ordered another homeplug for the Yamaha amp. I have connected it to network in the past but only for firmware updates and internet radio.

Downloaded the Yamaha app from iStore.

Installed Audio Station on NAS box.

Once kit arrives I'll try ripping a CD and see how everything goes. if that's successful then the daunting prospect of the DAT tapes awaits. It's been a very informative afternoon. Thanks to cheeseboy again.

 

[MajorFubar]

Once kit arrives I'll try ripping a CD and see how everything goes. if that's successful then the daunting prospect of the DAT tapes awaits. It's been a very informative afternoon. Thanks to cheeseboy again.

Sorry if I missed where you told us what computer you've got but if it's a failry recent iMac or Mac Mini (sadly not the latest I believe) then I believe the line input jack is also capable taking a mini toslink connector, which would mean you wouldn't need an external sound card.

 

[RayP]

Sorry if I missed where you told us what computer you've got but if it's a failry recent iMac or Mac Mini (sadly not the latest I believe) then I believe the line input jack is also capable taking a mini toslink connector, which would mean you wouldn't need an external sound card.

Sorry, I didn't but it's a Windows 7 Home Premium PC home built so I do need that card.

Whilst I have your ear could I pick your brain? I have installed apps for both my Yamaha RX-A3010 amp and Synology 212j NAS box on my iPad. So once I have some music installed I can presumably use the two apps to choose music and control the sound levels.

Playing the music direct from the Synology means it travels through a Gigabit switching box, homeplug, electricity cables, another homeplug before arriving at the amp. Is there likely to be serious degradation in the sound quality or does it not matter when digital?

For someone brought up on analogue hi-fi systems it seems a torturous path from source to destination. And if I do find it's not acceptable and a DAC is required does it matter where it's located? The NAS box is upstairs and the hi-fi downstairs. If the DAC needs plugging into the NAS box as well as the amp I seem to have a problem.

 

[cheeseboy]

Whilst I have your ear could I pick your brain? I have installed apps for both my Yamaha RX-A3010 amp and Synology 212j NAS box on my iPad. So once I have some music installed I can presumably use the two apps to choose music and control the sound levels.

Just thought about this. Without connecting the synology up to a dac directly via usb, you will have to use the yamaha app to do the music playback. The yamaha amp will look at the DNLA server on the nas and find the music. At this point don't worry too much about playback directly from the NAS.

Playing the music direct from the Synology means it travels through a Gigabit switching box, homeplug, electricity cables, another homeplug before arriving at the amp. Is there likely to be serious degradation in the sound quality or does it not matter when digital?

Doesn't matter when it's digital. Digital signals can actually take a lot of degredation before they become useless, and at that point the sound quality doesn't degrade, it just drops out. The internet is testament to this, and least people (I'm looking at you cable manufacturers) forget, we all used to use dial up and send those signals by converting them in to a an analogue sound, then re-converting them at the other end. Cable manufacturers would tell you otherwise, but they would be lying and it's the reason they've already been told off by the ASA and on most of the websites, you will find the very subtlely "we think" rather than "we can prove" about their claims. Th method used for most transimission of network data is called TCP/IP and that was made with error correction built in, so there's nothing to worry about.

Sometimes with digital signals you can get rf/electrical interference, but that will manifest itself with a hum or suchlike, not degraded sound quality.

 

[RayP]

Just thought about this. Without connecting the synology up to a dac directly via usb, you will have to use the yamaha app to do the music playback. The yamaha amp will look at the DNLA server on the nas and find the music. At this point don't worry too much about playback directly from the NAS.

The homeplug for the Yamaha has arrived this morning. I'll connect later and then I can install the DNLA server app. Still waiting for the soundcard to arrive. I have a couple of questions...

1) Will the Yamaha app be able to show me artwork of the music being played?

2) Is it a major disadvantage not having a DAC connected to the NAS? Does it compromise my ability to look through my music collection and easily find what I want to listen to?

3) Without a separate DAC is the DAC inside the Yamaha used instead?

I suppose what I'm asking is is it desirable to have a separate DAC and for the NAS box to be attached to the Yamaha via USB? I could move things if the benefits were sufficient.

Doesn't matter when it's digital....Sometimes with digital signals you can get rf/electrical interference, but that will manifest itself with a hum or suchlike, not degraded sound quality.

Okay, thanks.

 

[cheeseboy]

1) Will the Yamaha app be able to show me artwork of the music being played?

I'll be honest, I have no idea. I'm guessing, most apps, providing there is a picture there for it to use, it will display it. Sorry i can't be more help on that, but each application and bit of software has it's own way it does things.

2) Is it a major disadvantage not having a DAC connected to the NAS? Does it compromise my ability to look through my music collection and easily find what I want to listen to?

It shouldn't compromise anything. The NAS is merley acting a network storage device, and with the DLNA software on it, it will advertise what it has to any clients (in this case, the yamaha amp) for them to playback.

3) Without a separate DAC is the DAC inside the Yamaha used instead?

yes, it will be. As the amp you have isn't cheap, I would expect yamaha to have put something decent in it, hence me suggesting you try that first before you think about buying another one.

I suppose what I'm asking is is it desirable to have a separate DAC and for the NAS box to be attached to the Yamaha via USB? I could move things if the benefits were sufficient.

ok, hope this doesn't get too confusing, but it all depends on the implementation of the USB device. From what I can gather, the usb sockets on the Yamaha amp are meant to be for hard/drives and memory sticks only. That means that the software in the yamaha only views the usb socket as a media storage thing. That means that you could not connect up something like the NAS unit, and expect the NAS unit to see the amplifier as an external dac. I could be very wrong about the usb socket on the amp, but that was just a cursory glance. Some amplifiers (and external dacs) have USB sockets that allow you to plug things like streamers/computers/nas units in to it, so the streamer/computer/nas unit see's it as an external DAC to be used for playback.

If you are wanting to use the DAC on your amp, there's no reason to get another DAC for the NAS unit. If you find you're not keen on the sound from the Yamahas DAC, then yes, have a look at something that you could then plug in to the nas, but you would need the nas and dac moved closed to the amp then, as you would be taking an analogue feed from the DAC in to the amp.

 

[RayP]

Thanks for all that info. I've read through the Yamaha manual and you're quite right that the USB port can be used for music playback but you're limited to a memory stick. It's on the front panel so is clearly designed just for those and not for NAS boxes etc.

Further on it mentions NAS boxes and once configured for DNLA / UPnP it does have the capability to show artwork for the selected album and track titles. There's no reason to believe the app wouldn't show the same info as that displayed on a TV screen. That's a relief!

Your point about the Yamaha having a decent quality DAC makes sense. They're renowned for their music quality so it should certainly be of a very good standard. I suppose if you have a normal stereo amp that's when you would need a separate DAC unit.

I think all I need to do now is get the Yamaha on the network, configure the DNLA side of things and await the sound card. I'll come back when I've recorded my first CD.

Many thanks once again.

 

[cheeseboy]

I think all I need to do now is get the Yamaha on the network, configure the DNLA side of things and await the sound card. I'll come back when I've recorded my first CD.

Many thanks once again.

good luck, hope it all works out

 

[RayP]

Yamaha now on network and music folder visible on the Yamaha iPad app. Lack of any recorded music prevents me going any further.

Very handy having Internet Radio especially not needing a 42" plasma on to choose and change stations! All done through the app. Very clever.

 

[cheeseboy]

awesome stuff, glad to hear it's working

May try ripping a few CD's initially for testing/playing with.

 

[RayP]

awesome stuff, glad to hear it's working

May try ripping a few CD's initially for testing/playing with.

Thanks! I've just engaged brain.

I have a laptop with a DVD drive. So I've put a CD in and it's currently ripping to the SSD. Once it's done I'll move that folder to the music folder on the NAS box. I would have gone direct to NAS but didn't have settings right.

It's now finished thanks to speed of SSD. Exciting times. Back shortly with more news.

 

[RayP]

I've ripped my first CD and am now listening to it from the NAS box through my RX-A3010. Sound is excellent. Really impressed.

Looking at the individual files they all have wma extensions. Is that the same as FLAC? Or do I need to change a setting when I rip?

 

[cheeseboy]

what software are you using?

wma is a windows format, and is compressed. So in theory ripping to FLAC should yield better results.

edit: you can try this, it's all free software. It's what I use - cdex. Only downside is it's not pretty or the most user friendly, it's very functional though, but for the sake of a bit of testing you might want to have a play:

http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=CDex_and_FLAC

 

[RayP]

Windows Media Player. I checked the properties of a track and it's 128kbps.

53m 33s of music on 24 tracks has used 49.5Mb.

I guess I'm restricted to what WMP can do until I install something like Audacity.

 

[RayP]

edit: you can try this, it's all free software. It's what I use - cdex. Only downside is it's not pretty or the most user friendly, it's very functional though, but for the sake of a bit of testing you might want to have a play:

http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=CDex_and_FLAC

Thanks. Will give it a try. Comparison with wma tracks should show the differences in sound.

LATER: Having installed CDex there were a few blank screens during the install. On completion it turns out that 4 applications have been installed without my agreement and the home page and default search engine was changed in Firefox. All uninstalled now and my original choices reinstated. Just a warning to others who might download CDex.