Need advice to buy Hi-Fi system!

[admin_exported]

Hello people of WHF community,

As a super quick introduction, my name is Roman and I'm looking into buying my first proper hi-fi system. I have spent several weeks researching products within my price range (which has had to double since the start!) and have generally nagged all sales guys of nearby hi-fi shops to death. I have a background in producing music and performing live, so I have a fairly good idea of what I want and maybe I have slightly different preferences compared to other audiophiles. Now, I am at a stage where I have a fairly good idea of what I can get - but the gear that I'm interested is becoming harder and harder to find, so everything is becoming difficult to compare - hence I need your expert advice and opinions!!!

The original blue-print was to spend around £1,800 on high quality hifi system (CD player, integrated amp, floorstanding speakers, cables - and eventually a turntable) that would last me for 20 years and would become my reference for listening to music. (At present, that point of reference are my trusty Audio-Technica monitor headphones). Quickly I realised that I would struggle to find gear to my liking within this range... I definitely can't justify spending thousands and thousands on a hifi system, so I guess the very very very very very upper limit will have to be around £3,000 (for everything).

I mostly listen to complex rock/metal albums, but also some jazz/fusion and classical. Most recordings would be quite busy, multi-instrument, and in the case of "heavier" bands, some fairly extreme EQ's and unusual production choices. However the system should be able to clearly reproduce the detail of more sparse recordings.

The overall sound of the system needs to be clear, tight, precise and have an excellent degree of separation between the instruments. I don't mind if the system colours a particular frequency range somewhat, etc. The purpose of this system would be for me to understand the music, and to enjoy it. I do not have the requirement of needing to feel like I am at Wembley arena - I don't need to have vocals pushed in front of everything and everything loud, etc - I want to sit back, appreciate production nuances and really hear what the performers are doing. So, I guess, clarity and musicality of the system would be key as well as good spacial awareness.

Reproduction of bass is a particular issue - I do not want subwoofers, and I am not into the whole sub-bass thing. I don't listen to house/electronica/r'n'b etc, so floors shaking is not a requirement! I need to have some separation between the bass and the low-mids, I like to be able to hear the notes of the basslines - and not just the OOOOOMPH. Similarly, for kick drums, the system needs to be able to give them weight and definition - however I want to avoid a resonating at around 100hz as soon as there is a lot of kick drums!!

I have tried out and read about a bunch of gear. From reviews this is broadly what I managed to narrow down my selection to:

Speakers:

Epos M22i

Dali Ikon 6

Monitor Audio RX6

Leema Xone

Revel Concerta F12

I have been unable to track down Ikon 6's anywhere to actually listen to them properly (richersounds putting 192kbps mp3's through them on a crowded and busy shop-floor doesn't count!), but initially I thought they'd be the ones for me based on the reviews. I tried KEF iq70 and I thought they were muscular-sounding but had muddy bass. I tried B&W CM7's (bass was not tight enough) and 684's (sounded a bit flat and uninspired). I listened to Epos M22i's and I absolutely loved their bass response and mids, but the treble was a little piercing at times (especially with the Roksan Kandy. Sounded fine with Creek products). Haven't listened to any of the other speakers. Please let me know if you have have had any experience with any of the above or would recommend other speakers

CD Players/integrated amps

Creek Evolution 2

Creek Destiny

???

I think I have pretty much settled on Creek for the electronics. Have listened to Roksan Kandy set-up and was quite disappointed. The amplifier, in particular just lacked excitement and I guess the whole thing didn't really open up the sound as much as I hoped. Would it be fair to say that it sounded a bit cold, perhaps? Unable to find Cyrus stockists as of yet, but I doubt I'll buy it as I really dislike the look of them! Cambridge audio didn't inspire any interest...Tried Creek products and was super impressed - especially with the Destiny amp. Not sure the Destiny CD player is that much better than the Evolution 2 CD player, but it did improve dynamics and added more "power" to the drums (but it's obviously far more expensive). Tried a bunch of harman kardon / cheaper Cambridge Audio stuff and they were no match for the Creek gear...

So, having tried Epos M22i together with Creek Destiny setup, I was mightily impressed and loved the sound. As I understand, the Destiny CD player lacks a little treble, which completely smoothed out the M22i's shrill highs (which seemed almost unbearable with the Roksan). However at over £3,000, I decided I need a reality check and to see if there's anything else that would do better. So perhaps, the Epos / Creek setup is one to beat from my present experience up to date. I do really like the warm mid-range and clarity of the Creek units as well as how they look/feel to use and they seem to have a good understanding with the Epos. However, I am interested to know whether the DALI Ikon 6's or Monitor Audio RX6's or any of the other speakers could work better?

The DALI's extended treble response interests me, especially as there seem to be some concerns about Epos speakers' handling of treble. MA RX6's seem to have good reviews.

Of course, I am still open to suggestions for CD/amp combos...

Many thanks for your time guys!

Roman

 

[shooter]

Welcome Roman.

You have set yourself a 3k limit but auditioned 4k systems!!

The Creek/Epos combo works wonderfully and they complement each other perfectly and their are other 4k systems that would work wonderfully also including the Leema Stream/Pulse/Xone combo that would dig out the detail you are looking for with heavy/complex guitar music you listen too.

But you only have 3k so you need to back to the drawing board and start auditioning again, maybe around the 2.5k mark that will leave some cash left for cable's etc.

There's plenty of choice out there but your ear's can only decide where your money goes and as you have already found out system matching is key so go out and hassle those sales rep's again!!

 

[caddyhound]

With your taste in music I would also consider Naim Nait 5i-2 and CD 5i-2 for the electronics.If you are happy with ex-dem speakers then PMC GB1i's and Spendor A5's would make a great match and leave enough for some modestly upgraded cables.Use Naim's own speaker cable though. Arcam FMJ A18 amp and CD17 cd player are alternatives if you don't like the Naim sound when you hear it.Let us all know what you decide on.I am sure the many Naim users on the forum will come up with some alternate speakers for the Nait and CD.

 

[Anonymous]

well, Evo 2 CD player / Destiny Amp / Epos M22i + cables setup is actually comfortably within 3k from my local shop.... However the Destiny CD player would push the whole thing over 3k for sure. I will look into Leema combo.

I haven't heard any Naim products yet, so will look into them.

Thanks!

Anyone has had experience with MA RX6 / DALI Ikon 6?

 

[mikegtar]

You could get a Creek/Epos system at a VERY good price by shopping around.

e.g. Superfi have the M22i in Maple or Red Cherry at half price, Creek often sell amps and CD players which they've loaned to magazines for review or taken to shows (don't just look on their website, give them a call and explain what you're looking for, the website isn't always upto date and also they may give you a better price for buying multiple items - why not see how much they'll sell you an amp, CD and tuner for ..... you may be pleasantly surprised).

 

[Anonymous]

wow, you have all the stuff I'm thinking of getting! What do you think of the Epos / M22i setup in context of my requirements? What about M22i's treble and the fact that they "only" go up to 20k? I'm a bit concerned by this - I may not be able to hear frequencies much beyond 16k myself (had hearing tested...), however CD sampling rate should allow to capture frequencies up to 22k... And when I get the turntable to give me an analogue source, is this going to be more of a problem? 20k seems a bit a low for highest frequency...

Have you had any experience with the Evo 2 CD player? I could hear the added improvements from the Destiny CD player, but I'm not convinced that these minor improvements are worth 700 quid...

I'm aware of the superfi offer on the speakers, but will give Creek a call also.

Cheers!

 

[caddyhound]

One other alternative i forgot to mention that would suit your music. - Primare i21 and CD21 for the electronics.I run a Primare A30.5 into PMC FB1i's in my AV system and it sounds great with rock and jazz.

 

[shooter]

roman_sub:
wow, you have all the stuff I'm thinking of getting! What do you think of the Epos / M22i setup in context of my requirements? What about M22i's treble and the fact that they "only" go up to 20k? I'm a bit concerned by this - I may not be able to hear frequencies much beyond 16k myself (had hearing tested...), however CD sampling rate should allow to capture frequencies up to 22k... And when I get the turntable to give me an analogue source, is this going to be more of a problem? 20k seems a bit a low for highest frequency...

As the human can hear only 20hz (bass) to 20khz (treble) i dont think frequencies in CD sampling of 22khz would affect your listening pleasure and as you have found out that Creek/Epos system works very nicely indeed. If it a concern for yourself then looking at different speakers could be the only option (for piece of mind reasons only) but if you go with what you hear you could be very happy.

Their is another option which would be to add super tweeters at a later stage when more funds are available. Something like the Townsend would add frequencies up to 100khz... That would cover it.

 

[Anonymous]

shooter69:As the human can hear only 20hz (bass) to 20khz (treble) i dont think frequencies in CD sampling of 22khz would affect your listening pleasure and as you have found out that Creek/Epos system works very nicely indeed. If it a concern for yourself then looking at different speakers could be the only option (for piece of mind reasons only) but if you go with what you hear you could be very happy. Their is another option which would be to add super tweeters at a later stage when more funds are available. Something like the Townsend would add frequencies up to 100khz... That would cover it.

It's not really a massive issue for me, but my guess is that this might account for some reviews of the M22i's treble being too bright.... Even if you can't hear a frequency, it doesn't mean that it won't affect the overall sound of the music! I heard some people saying they find CDs too harsh-sounding compared to analogue (because they chop off frequencies above 22k) - but I haven't really noticed that myself - hence buying a CD player... In my experience, chopping off frequencies does harshen the sound (as you lose the harmonics that are naturally present). This might warrant a separate thread, actually...

It just seems a little odd that these Epos have this particular frequency response, seeing as most of their competitors go up to 30 - 35k. Even my headphones have a frequency response range going up to 28k! I will give Epos a call and see what they say about this next week - if anyone's interested, I can post their response.

Back to the issue of choosing a hi-fi setup.. =)

Cheers

Roman

 

[Anonymous]

used Musical Fidelity A5 integrated amp = £800

old IMF TLS80 speakers = £700

New Arcam Diva CD192 cdp = £900

speaker cables and interconnect to suit (used) = £250

total: £2650 .... with the £350 change, look at connecting your hifi to spotify, and send the speakers to a place like wembely loudspeakers for a check/service/polishing of the cabinets

-----------------------------------------------

if I had £3000 to spend on a system, this is what I would look at very closely .... I would first buy the speakers and amp then try audition a brand new cdp (at home) and see what cdp suits the best, but would first try the Arcam

 

[mikegtar]

roman_sub:

wow, you have all the stuff I'm thinking of getting! What do you think of the Epos / M22i setup in context of my requirements? What about M22i's treble and the fact that they "only" go up to 20k? I'm a bit concerned by this - I may not be able to hear frequencies much beyond 16k myself (had hearing tested...), however CD sampling rate should allow to capture frequencies up to 22k... And when I get the turntable to give me an analogue source, is this going to be more of a problem? 20k seems a bit a low for highest frequency...

Have you had any experience with the Evo 2 CD player? I could hear the added improvements from the Destiny CD player, but I'm not convinced that these minor improvements are worth 700 quid...

I'm aware of the superfi offer on the speakers, but will give Creek a call also.

Cheers!

Well the Destiny/M22i system has the clarity, musicality and deep and wide soundstage that you're looking for. As far as bass is concerned, even my mum really noticed the bass presence when compared to my Spendor S5e's (you'd expect the bass to be deeper because of the bigger drivers, but it is also fast, tight and full of rhythm).

With regard to the 20Khz treble range and how it could limit the interaction of higher frequency harmonics with the high treble frequencies, I haven't heard this effect in other speakers to compare it against. I can say though that the perception of "air" and "space" that these speakers convey is amazing. Maybe the 20Khz quoted is a standard nominal figure and the real figure could be higher anyway.

I've had no experience with the EVO CD player, but the electronics / power supplies are a lot different between the EVO and Destiny Ranges and Mike Creek will have designed the units to work best with their counterparts. Also the remote controls work with different codes, so you'd have to use 2 remotes. And £700 is not the difference that you'd pay with the prices direct from Creek.....

 

[shooter]

roman_sub:
It just seems a little odd that these Epos have this particular frequency response, seeing as most of their competitors go up to 30 - 35k. Even my headphones have a frequency response range going up to 28k! I will give Epos a call and see what they say about this next week - if anyone's interested, I can post their response.

It would interesting to know.

 

[shooter]

Just had a scout through the Epos web site.
The M22 (old model) had a frequency range up to 22khz.
The new model M22i as you know has a frequency response up to 20khz.
Basically they changed the tweeter configuration to accommodate high powered amps.
All the info is in the FAQ's page.....

 

[Anonymous]

shooter69:Just had a scout through the Epos web site. The M22 (old model) had a frequency range up to 22khz. The new model M22i as you know has a frequency response up to 20khz. Basically they changed the tweeter configuration to accommodate high powered amps. All the info is in the FAQ's page.....

a snippet from the old IMF TLS80 brochure:

A free standing loudspeaker system measuring approximately 38 1/2" x 16" x 18" wide. Bass unit 11 3/4" x 8 1/4" flat polystyrene diaphragm loaded by transmission line, mid range unit 6" plastic cone containing in separate line, tweeter 1 3/4 " diaphragm and 3/4" chemical dome super-tweeter.

Crossover electrical four way at approximately 375 Hz, 3.5 KHz and 13 KHz Frequency range from 20 Hz to beyond audibility. Fitted perspective control - see text - variation in impedance +-1 ohm @ 1.5 KHz. Efficiency measured via Pink noise 1 metre on axis: 40 watts produces 96dB. Nominal impedance matching 4 to 8 ohms. Driving power requirements 40 to 80 watts . Supplied in matched 'mirror-image' pairs in walnut -see cover illustration

pricewise, don't think that you will find anything new that is better

 

[shooter]

dim_span:
Frequency range from 20 Hz to beyond audibility.

Does that mean beyond 20khz?

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Roman,

No idea about the Creek ones, and can't really help on the choice of speakers, but as I am also in the process of building my first (and hopefully the last at least in the next ten years) proper hi-fi system, I have a little bit experiences to share with you.

With the music you listen to - mostly rock/mental and some jazz and classical, you might want to try PMC pr ATC floorstanders. I listen to classical and jazz mostly and some rock so I have found the PMC standmounters produces too much bass but they might be good for rocks. The ATC standmounters I auditioned generally produced clear, neutral and musical sounds and they were good with muti-instruments music. I tried the small standmount ones using Mahler's symphonies and Wagners, they did good job. I also auditioned Spendor A5s, which are floor standers. They were fantastic with Mahlers and Wagners but as I am looking for standmounters, they are not in my list.

 

[Anonymous]

shooter69:dim_span:

Frequency range from 20 Hz to beyond audibility.

Does that mean beyond 20khz?

not sure, as I don't always understand the technical jargon and am quoting from the brochure.... but they are transmission design (you also feel the bass... if that makes sense) ... my B&W DM2's are also a transmission design ... also used to own a pair of IMF TLS80

 

[shooter]

To get your thread back on track i'm throwing this one together to get some inspiration!!

Sugden A21 al Series 2 integrated.

Rega Apollo CD.

ProAc Tablette Ref Eight.

 

[Anonymous]

thanks for all the suggestions so far; i think the Naim Nait 5i & Cd5i has emerged as a very serious contender. Following more research I think I have narrowed down the list to the following:

CD: creek evo 2 vs creek destiny (used) vs rega apollo vs naim cd5i vs arcam

AMP: creek 5350se (used) vs creek destiny (used) vs rega mira 3 vs naim 5i vs rotel RA1520

SPEAKERS: epos m22i vs MA RX6 vs Spendor A5 (used)

Spendor A5's sound very good for my purposes - from the WHF review they sound simply perfec!t (http://www.whathifi.com/Review/Spendor-A5/). Would I be right in thinking that these would blow away the RX6's and the m22i's? (obviously given their greater price, ex-demo/used would be the only way to go given the budget...) What CD/AMP would work best with the A5's?

Apollo's top-loading worries me as I intend for the unit to be stored inside a closed rack - can anyone give me an idea of clearance required above the unit to load the CD in?

I have read that Naim Nait is very energetic and pushes the sound onto you -in this respect, how much is it like Roksan Kandy K2? Because I did not like the the Kandy...

Essentially, the CD/amp combo need to project the sound, but away from me (so i would be looking into the sonic world) as opposed to making it jump out at me, if that makes sense?

cheers!

Roman

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Roman,

Good to know you have drawn a short list now.

My experience (over the last few days) with hi-fi is you have to listen to them to know what you like.

So make sure you audition those in your list before making any decision.

 

[Anonymous]

Just to add into the mix and something which what hi fi have illustrated in their current issue that an external dac sounds just as good as cd players and often better than them to. So if you have the choice of either a computer setup, or a vastly expensive cd, there is really no merit in a cd player. If on the other hand, you just want a cd player and can't be bothered with digital music, then I shall shutup

 

[shooter]

roman_sub:
i think the Naim Nait 5i & Cd5i has emerged as a very serious
I have read that Naim Nait is very energetic and pushes the sound onto you -in this respect, how much is it like Roksan Kandy K2? Because I did not like the the Kandy...

It could be worth doing a separate thread for this..

 

[Anonymous]

shooter69: It could be worth doing a separate thread for this..

i think you're right, i have too many questions to ask!!

a general question: is it better to assemble a hi-fi system part-by-part (going by reviews, personal experience, etc) ensuring each part is the best value/quality possible within the budget, and then, if it all doesn't quite work together, identifying the weaknesses and correcting them

OR

getting a whole system together off-the-go, ensuring everything is an ideal combination right away?

because, trouble is, given limited budget & time, i sense the two approaches might yield very different setups...

 

[Craig M.]

matching components together is very important, just assembling a bunch of 5 star products is no guarantee you will like the result. in your first post you mention wanting to hear production subtleties, try to demo some atc speakers, they will let you hear everything. i think they are untouchable in their price bracket.

 

[chebby]

The Nait 5i and CD5i are (literally) made for each other and do enjoy a high degree of synergy.

Even with the latest price rise (total £1720) this leaves you £1280 for speakers/stands/speaker cables.

You won't need to think about interconnects as Naim provide their own 5 Pin DIN interconnect (worth £115) free in the CD player box.

Their NACA5 speaker cable is £15 a metre (£105 for 2 x 3.5m lengths) and your Naim dealer should do all the necessary soldering using the Naim connectors provided with the amp.

You still have enough left for a decent pair of stand-mount speakers worth around £1000 and a good pair of suitable stands.

PMC DB1i (abouth £900 a pair) would be near the top of any demo list to work well with Naim.

You could save a packet and get the Rega RS3 compact floorstanders (£698) and not need to spend out on stands either. The RS3s work superbly well with the Nait 5i and are not fussy about positioning either.

Alternatively, the Naimuniti (now £2100) contains CD player, amp, DAC, FM and DAB tuners and wireless streaming in one box and loses very, very little over the seperates in quality. (Leaves you to enjoy CDs and other digital sources without having to decide between them.)

If you really have to fit in a turntable into the budget then I suggest the Rega P3-24 (£398) and get something like EB Acoustics EB1 speakers for £470 to keep within your limits. Still leaves enough for a good MM cartridge/phono stage/stands/speaker cables.