My next upgrade?

[strapped for cash]

This post and the questions asked may offend die hard audiophiles. If so, I apologise in advance...

I recently bought a Yamaha RX-A810 receiver, primarily for use with films, but I'd also like to get the best out of it with music. I appreciate that an AVR will always represent an element of compromise in terms of stereo performance.

While I love the spread of sound and detail the Yamaha produces with films, especially DTS HDMA and Dolby True HD soundtracks, it's less talented with music. The tone and detail produced with music are very pleasing, but the sound lacks some bite and authority at the bottom end. Compounding this problem, I'm sure, is the fact that I'm using a budget Panasonic Blu-ray player as a CD transport.

I'd like to introduce another system component to address this problem, without spending a fortune. If money and space were not important factors, I'd love a dedicated stereo system. However, this really isn't a possibility in the foreseeable future.

Option one is to buy a dedicated CD player, which would be connected to the Yamaha's analogue inputs, thereby taking advantage of the CD player's onboard digital to analogue converter. It would of course need to be a CD player that produces a more forthright sound at the low end; maybe something like the Teac PDH600, which is available in a few places for £300.

Option two is to buy a DAC as an intermediary between the Panasonic BDP and AVR. Again, a more dynamic sound at the bottom end is a priority.

Any advice from hi-fi enthusiasts would be hugely appreciated.

Cheers...

 

[Anonymous]

what speakers do you have?

 

[strapped for cash]

Sorry, it occurred to me after posting that this would be useful information!

I have B&W 601 series 3 speakers as mains, with a B&W 600 LCR centre. They're old, but still do a very respectable job. In a perfect world I'd look to upgrade my speakers, too, but I can't afford to replace the B&Ws with speakers that would represent a worthwhile upgrade in terms of performance.

I also have an Acoustic Energy Radiance subwoofer, which lacks a bit of low end clout, but is fairly musical for the price. For rear speakers I use Q Acoustics QAVs, which create a really impressive spread of sound with films. I almost bought B&W M1s, but upon audition they sounded too directional for rear speakers and gave their position away too easily. They would have been a better tonal match with the B&W fronts, but for rear speakers that create a more seamless sound field I preferred the Q Acoustics.

I mention all this as I'd occasionally listen to multi-channel music, though my priority (music-wise) would be stereo through the 601s.

I should also add that I will be listening to CDs predominantly, though I might make an occasional foray into lower bitrate territory.

 

[Anonymous]

thanks. your amplifier should be able to drive your speakers perfectly well, so it may be worth looking at improving the source, though whether you'll get more low end authority from doing so is debatable. I think a music fidelity vdac or something similar might be worth a punt, ideally on a sale or return basis, or you could try and source a used one that you could move on for minimal loss if it doesn't bring the improvements you seek.

if a dac doesn't help then i feel that changing the speakers is the only way you're going to get more low end authority, though i appreciate that that may not be an option right now. i wouldn't risk spending too much money trying to achieve this any other way though.

 

[BenLaw]

For rear speakers I use Q Acoustics QAVs, which create a really impressive spread of sound with films. I almost bought B&W M1s, but upon audition they sounded too directional for rear speakers and gave their position away too easily. They would have been a better tonal match with the B&W fronts, but for rear speakers that create a more seamless sound field I preferred the Q Acoustics.

The QAV is a soundbar, do you mean the 7000LRs?

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi there SFC, I will tell you what I would do....which is just a little controversial.

- Make the most of what you've already got by bi-amping the fronts (if possible).

- If speakers are on a suspended wooden floor, isolate them from it.

- Get some Clearer Audio Copper-Line Alpha / Alpha One power cables to try (can return for a refund within 60 days)

http://www.cleareraudio.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1

- Try to get a home dem of Rega Dac / Rega Apollo R (if in budget)

- Musical Fidelity V-Dac 11 if budget a problem.

- Avoid silver plated cable.

 

[ear]

get a stereo amp and add it to your yamaha

 

[strapped for cash]

The QAV is a soundbar, do you mean the 7000LRs?

Hi Ben,

I mean these: http://www.superfi.co.uk/p-3910-discontinued-q-acoustics-qav-wall-mount-rear-speakers-pair.aspx

They are the rear speakers that accompanied the sound bar as part of the QAV speaker package, but were sold separately as "QAV Wall Mount Rear Speakers." The QAVs were cheap, but their ability to vanish and create a diffuse rear sound field meant I preferred them to more expensive options. I auditioned them with B&W 683s and found they actually integrated well, which has also been my experience at home. I needed a neat, small speaker option, as my sofa sits flush to the back wall of my living room.

 

[strapped for cash]

Cno and ear, many thanks for your suggestions. And feel free to be a controversial as you like!

I considered adding another amplifier to drive the main speakers, but there are two reasons this is impractical for me.

First, my kit is housed in an open-backed but otherwise enclosed AV cabinet. Another amplifier kicking out heat is probably not too sensible an idea in this set up, as it's already a little cramped in there.

Second, as much as I want to get the best out of music, adding a separate amp through the Yamaha's pre-outs would affect the tonal characteristics of multi-channel film soundtracks, which remain my priority. I did mention that I'd potentially offend die hard audiophiles. If my priority was music then adding a second amp would seem a logical solution.

Overall, I want to preserve the receiver's performance with multi-channel sources, while achieving slightly more kick with music (with a firmer grip at the bottom end).

 

[Overdose]

I would suggest that the issue that you describe is attributable to the relationship between your speakers and amp.

To get the best out of your current system, as is, you might need to upgrade your speaker cable to something more substantial, a 2.5mm to 4mm multi strand twisted OFC cable of generic mnanufacture.

As Cno has suggested, you could 'bi-amp' your speakers. This means connecting separate amp channel pairs to the upper and lower drivers of the speakers, remembering to disconnect the jumber plate/cable.

You could also try positioning the speakers differently, either toe in/out, or move closer/further apart etc. This can have a dramatic effect.

Have a look at the AVR settings, play around with stereo mode, if available, various effects and source direct or AV bypass, if available.

I would not recommend tinkering with anything else.

Beyond this, you are looking at replacing speakers and possibly then the amp, so optimise what you have, because the changes might be quite suprising.

 

[strapped for cash]

Thanks Overdose. So is the consensus that adding a dedicated CD player or DAC wouldn't represent value for money?

I've experimented extensively with speaker position, including changing the subwoofer's location, the main speakers' distance from the back wall, and various toe-in/out adjustments. I haven't changed the speaker cable -- I'm currently using QED silver anniversary bi-wire cable that's as old as my speakers. Not to open a can of worms, but would changing speaker cable really create a greater sonic difference than adding a dedicated CD player or DAC?

 

[CnoEvil]

Cno and ear, many thanks for your suggestions. And feel free to be a controversial as you like!

I considered adding another amplifier to drive the main speakers, but there are two reasons this is impractical for me.

First, my kit is housed in an open-backed but otherwise enclosed AV cabinet. Another amplifier kicking out heat is probably not too sensible an idea in this set up, as it's already a little cramped in there.

Second, as much as I want to get the best out of music, adding a separate amp through the Yamaha's pre-outs would affect the tonal characteristics of multi-channel film soundtracks, which remain my priority. I did mention that I'd potentially offend die hard audiophiles. If my priority was music then adding a second amp would seem a logical solution.

Overall, I want to preserve the receiver's performance with multi-channel sources, while achieving slightly more kick with music (with a firmer grip at the bottom end).

Normally I would have suggested a 2 channel amp, but picked up on your reservations....hence the "making the most of" suggestions.

I have a couple of observations re the possible 2nd amp though:

- It is possible to get a satisfactory match, but depends on the importance you place on stereo.

- Class D amps don't give off much heat, but would be harder to match.

FWIW. I agree that you should maximize your system and see if you can get music sounding how you want it for the foreseeable.....you can always add another amp at any stage if your priorities change. I have often found that as people's 2 channel gets better, it starts to have a greater priority.

 

[BenLaw]

I'd say upgrade your sub.

 

[strapped for cash]

I have often found that as people's 2 channel gets better, it starts to have a greater priority.

Perhaps, but I'm as much a die hard home cinema enthusiast as regular contributors to this section are die hard stereo fans. To put this in context, I own in the region of 300 Blu-rays and countless DVDs besides, while I own something like 80 CDs. It's unlikely that my priorities will shift markedly in future. Again, no offence to audiophiles and musos is intended whatsoever.

 

[strapped for cash]

I'd say upgrade your sub.

Thanks Ben,

That's something I'm genuinely considering. If so, what would represent a notable improvement without spending silly money? Bearing in mind that I've spent quite a bit upgrading my TV and receiver in the last month, I couldn't spend too much. If I could get £200 for my AE sub, I could look for an alternative in the region of £500.

 

[CnoEvil]

I haven't changed the speaker cable -- I'm currently using QED silver anniversary bi-wire cable that's as old as my speakers. Not to open a can of worms, but would changing speaker cable really create a greater sonic difference than adding a dedicated CD player or DAC?

I don't like silver coated cable, which for me introduces an artificial hardness / brittleness to the sound. I would be looking at something like Linn K20 off ebay. At the cheaper end (of cables), it's more about a change in presentation, than a dramatic overhaul of the sound. Copper cable should sound more musical, and may help the bass.

Are you bi-amping atm or bi-wiring?

I would say introducing a CDP / Dac would be the single biggest improvement you can make, without looking at an amp. The other suggestions were about maximizing this (because you aren't getting an amp).

 

[BenLaw]

I'd say upgrade your sub.

Thanks Ben,

That's something I'm genuinely considering. If so, what would represent a notable improvement without spending silly money? Bearing in mind that I've spent quite a bit upgrading my TV and receiver in the last month, I couldn't spend too much. If I could get £200 for my AE sub, I could look for an alternative in the region of £500.

I say this because it actually seems to address your concerns, which are depth and authority at the bottom end. I would steer well clear of cable changes (zero effect in reality) and whilst source could improve things I see no reason why this will address bass in particular. So sub is logical. I'm afraid my sub knowledge is limited (I leapt in with an expensive one first time) but £500 second hand ought to get you a huge upgrade and hopefully someone else can help with recommendations.

 

[strapped for cash]

I would say introducing a CDP / Dac would be the single biggest improvement you can make, without looking at an amp. The other suggestions were about making the most of this (because you aren't getting an amp).

Thanks Cno,

This was really my point of entry, after some contemplation and research. I'm of course presently using an £80 BDP to play CDs, which seems far from ideal in terms of getting the most out of my admittedly limited music collection.

I'm still unsure as to whether I'd get better value from a BDP or DAC, though, which was why I wanted to draw on the expertise of the forum's hi-fi aficionados. At the same time, I've always felt that the subwoofer was the weakest component in my system, so as Ben suggests, that might be as sensible an upgrade.

 

[strapped for cash]

I'd say upgrade your sub.

Thanks Ben,

That's something I'm genuinely considering. If so, what would represent a notable improvement without spending silly money? Bearing in mind that I've spent quite a bit upgrading my TV and receiver in the last month, I couldn't spend too much. If I could get £200 for my AE sub, I could look for an alternative in the region of £500.

I say this because it actually seems to address your concerns, which are depth and authority at the bottom end. I would steer well clear of cable changes (zero effect in reality) and whilst source could improve things I see no reason why this will address bass in particular. So sub is logical. I'm afraid my sub knowledge is limited (I leapt in with an expensive one first time) but £500 second hand ought to get you a huge upgrade and hopefully someone else can help with recommendations.

It's hard to fault your logic there. My living room isn't huge. It's also an awkward L shape. Ignoring the bottom of the capital "L," if that makes sense, the living room is 14' x 12'.

With this and broader aesthetic factors in mind, I don't want a hulking ugly box taking up too much space. A light oak finish that compliments my speakers and AV cabinet would be nice as well.

I'm not making life easy for those trying their best to help, I know!

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm still unsure as to whether I'd get better value from a BDP or DAC, though, which was why I wanted to draw on the expertise of the forum's hi-fi aficionados. At the same time, I've always felt that the subwoofer was the weakest component in my system, so as Ben suggests, that might be as sensible an upgrade.

IMO. The sub is a nice idea, but won't make a poor source, good (for stereo). Your sub is not the best for the money, and is not as tight and punchy as it might be.

It's hard to go that wrong with this crowd: http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers.htm

At a guess, I would say the Dac would be better (Rega), but it is something you need to borrow and try.

 

[strapped for cash]

I'm still unsure as to whether I'd get better value from a BDP or DAC, though, which was why I wanted to draw on the expertise of the forum's hi-fi aficionados. At the same time, I've always felt that the subwoofer was the weakest component in my system, so as Ben suggests, that might be as sensible an upgrade.

IMO. The sub is a nice idea, but won't make a poor source, good (for stereo). Your sub is not the best for the money, and is not as tight and punchy as it might be.

It's hard to go that wrong with this crowd: http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers.htm

At s guess, I would say the Dac would be better (Rega), but it is something you need to borrow and try.

I'm stepping into a world of confusion here. After looking into a CDP, I thought the Teac PDH600 mentioned in the original post seemed a good option. I've read great things about it and it majors on bottom end bite. It's a slightly older CDP, but seems very good value at £300.

The Rega DAC, while potentially a very nice option, is probably too expensive given my current budget. I can really spend a maximum of £300, unless selling and replacing another system component.

 

[CnoEvil]

I'm stepping into a world of confusion here. After looking into a CDP, I thought the Teac PDH600 mentioned in the original post seemed a good option. I've read great things about it and it majors on bottom end bite. It's a slightly older CDP, but seems very good value at £300.

The Rega DAC, while potentially a very nice option, is probably too expensive given my current budget. I can really spend a maximum of £300, unless selling and replacing another system component.

There is really no need for confusion with regard to this as -

- It is only ever my intention to give suggestions that should be added to a demo list. If you hear the Teac and it gives better VFM than the Rega, then that is the one to go for. IME. Picking the right kit from behind a computer is a high risk strategy, if you don't listen to it.

I picked the Rega, as it is my personal pick for great performance for what you pay. TBF I haven't heard the Teac, so it is hard for me to comment as to how it will work.

I'm not into "telling people what to do", only throwing out "food for thought", mostly based on what I have discovered over nearly 40 years (doesn't sound so bad if you say it quickly ).

 

[Overdose]

If you are contemplating a DAC, I would strongly advise a try before you buy approach (at home) the differences if they exist (and they may well not) are likely to be very small. Be open minded and don't expect any huge differences, or you might end up convincing yourself otherwise.

A competent sub is probably the best advice, depending on what frequency ranges that you feel need reinforcing. Is it possible to cutoff frequencies when using a sub with your AVR? Being a newish model, this might be possible and give your main speakers a bit more headroom by offloading the lower frequency duties.

REL do some very nice subs, if you have the space, BTW.

The speaker cable advice was based on the supposition that you might have had some spindly stringy affair between amp and speakers, clearly you don't, so that area is best left alone.

 

[strapped for cash]

I'm stepping into a world of confusion here. After looking into a CDP, I thought the Teac PDH600 mentioned in the original post seemed a good option. I've read great things about it and it majors on bottom end bite. It's a slightly older CDP, but seems very good value at £300.

The Rega DAC, while potentially a very nice option, is probably too expensive given my current budget. I can really spend a maximum of £300, unless selling and replacing another system component.

There is really no need for confusion with regard to this as -

- It is only ever my intention to give suggestions that should be added to a demo list. If you hear the Teac and it gives better VFM than the Rega, then that is the one to go for. IME. Picking the right kit from behind a computer is a high risk strategy, if you don't listen to it.

I picked the Rega, as it is my personal pick for great performance for what you pay. TBF I haven't heard the Teac, so it is hard for me to comment as to how it will work.

I'm not into "telling people what to do", only throwing out "food for thought", mostly based on what I have discovered over nearly 40 years (doesn't sound so bad if you say it quickly ).

Indeed, I didn't mean to imply that you were trying to confuse me; more that I'm feeling quite confused. Your advice is very much appreciated. I also didn't think for a moment that you were "telling me what to do." If I have any expertise with regard to equipment, it's lies squarely within the field of home cinema. This is precisely why I posted in the hi-fi section, as those that frequent this part of the forum are best positioned to advise a relative novice such as myself.

I agree entirely about buying from behind a computer and always advocate a try before you buy (as extensively as possible) approach.

The difficulty with the Teac is that I can't audition the CDP. It's only available from a few retailers, none of which are local to me. Perhaps this rules it out, though from what I've read the Teac sounds like a very good solution (dangerous thinking, I know). I might investigate buying with an option to return.

To be honest, I don't find the 810's stereo performance disagreeable. It's a very easy listen. I'd just like a bit more punch.

If by 40 years you're referring to your overall age, I'm not far behind you. If you mean 40 years as an enthusiast, I've got some catching up to do! :twisted:

 

[strapped for cash]

If you are contemplating a DAC, I would strongly advise a try before you buy approach (at home) the differences if they exist (and they may well not) are likely to be very small. Be open minded and don't expect any huge differences, or you might end up convincing yourself otherwise.

A competent sub is probably the best advice, depending on what frequency ranges that you feel need reinforcing. Is it possible to cutoff frequencies when using a sub with your AVR? Being a newish model, this might be possible and give your main speakers a bit more headroom by offloading the lower frequency duties.

REL do some very nice subs, if you have the space, BTW.

The speaker cable advice was based on the supposition that you might have had some spindly stringy affair between amp and speakers, clearly you don't, so that area is best left alone.

The Yamaha doesn't offer much in the way of subwoofer EQ options. At the moment I'm torn between giving the Teac CDP a try on the basis that it could be returned, and selling my sub and buying a BK monolith. The BK is still a relatively large box for my small living room and might look a little imposing. As much as I favour performance over aesthetics, there's remains an element of compromise in this regard from my end.