Marantz MCR610 question... sorry yes another!

[Johnno2]

Its regarding the 'audio out' sockets, what exactly are they for?, I assume to connect an external amp, but what about the pre amp stage, does this out put need to go direct into an external power amp for an upgrade path or is it required to be connected to a' line in' on a tradtional intergrated amp, surely the signal cannot be passed through the MCR610 preamp then through the preamp of the external amp *confused*

I am only just getting to learn how hifi works !

 

[MajorFubar]

You're thinking WAY too deep. They're just line outputs. Simple as that. Back in the day, outputs on amps like this were called 'tape out' and they allowed you to record any of your sources to tape. Every amp had at least one set. What are they for? Anything you want. You can cobble them up to some powered speakers in another room if you like, such as in the kitchen for remote listening. Or to a recorder of somesort eg to timeshift radio broadcasts in a PVR kind of way. Sky's the limit.

My dad has a pair of wireless Sennheiser RS170s plugged into his MCR610's line outs. He's 85 and his hearing's bad, so he uses the 610's optical-in to play the TV through his headphones.

Just about the only thing you can't do with them is connect them straight to a power-amp, because the output from them doesn't go via the volume control.

 

[jamesrfisher]

My dad has just got one. Very useful having two sets of line in, one for TT (with external phono amp). The other it's used by the tape deck and the line out also goes to the tape deck so he can record off fm and Internet radio should he wish.

he is very happy with it, especially as I rigged it up for him and he can stream from his iMac!

 

[ela-ted]

I've taken a feed from the audio out sockets into my Rega integrated - works fine. The volume on the MCR610 has no effect on the signal - it is all controlled by the Rega. I'm still trying to find the best streamer/Airplay/radio configuration - the interface of the MCR610 is so slow I've reverted to my main system, using the MCR610 for internet radio and Airplay for now.

Marantz confirmed to me that a 5-6 second delay to change from 1 preset to another (no matter whether DAB, FM or Internet in any combination) is acceptable - "if you simply want to use the standard tuner, the favourite call function may seem slightly drawn out compared to some other products on the market."

I'm tempted by the Arcam airDAC - use my MacBook Air for streaming internet radio (and effectively DAB) and keep my old FM tuner.

 

[chebby]

Marantz confirmed to me that a 5-6 second delay to change from 1 preset to another (no matter whether DAB, FM or Internet in any combination) is acceptable ...

You would have been better off getting an M-CR603 whilst there were still some around.

I get about 1 - 2 second delay switching from one FM preset to another. (Maximum.)

AirPlay on the M-CR603 fires up in just a few seconds, after pressng the symbol on the Mac / iPhone / iPad (from Network Standby), and much less when the unit is not in standby.

I use internet radio via AirPlay (from TuneIn Radio Pro on iPad or iPhone) so I can't comment on it's own built in Internet Radio.

Marantz really seemed to have dropped the ball in the process of 'improving' this range! (Along with the plastic build and inelegant looks.)

 

[Johnno2]

is 3 seconds extra time between sources such an issue lol

the spotify feature on the 610 over the 603 is what sold it to me, it sounds very very close to cd qaulity really it does, although it takes even longer to load, but once it has loaded spotify it all works well and finds your chosen music promptly, its better to build a playlist first on the pc , rather than faffing typing with the remote

getting back to the original question , i have bypassed the 610 amps and it now goes through my integrated AS500, which adds a slighty more sparkle and life , the differnce though not as much as i thought, which goes to show how capable the little class D amps are in the marantz , plus there is another box again :roll: , which i wanted to avoid,

 

[paddyb]

getting back to the original question , i have bypassed the 610 amps and it now goes through my integrated AS500, which adds a slighty more sparkle and life , the differnce though not as much as i thought, which goes to show how capable the little class D amps are in the marantz , plus there is another box again :roll: , which i wanted to avoid,

Does this really work? I didn't think that passing through to a second amp was worth doing unless you have a pre out on the first one? Wouldn't the output from the second amp be limited by the orginal signal? Interested to find out, as I've seen a few second hand amps recently as I'm looking for a phono stage and I would be delighted if it also added a little sparkle to my Marantz. I have the older MCR603 by the way, the manual refers to it as Aux Out, but I presume this is the same?

 

[ela-ted]

getting back to the original question , i have bypassed the 610 amps and it now goes through my integrated AS500, which adds a slighty more sparkle and life , the differnce though not as much as i thought, which goes to show how capable the little class D amps are in the marantz , plus there is another box again :roll: , which i wanted to avoid,

Does this really work? I didn't think that passing through to a second amp was worth doing unless you have a pre out on the first one? Wouldn't the output from the second amp be limited by the orginal signal? Interested to find out, as I've seen a few second hand amps recently as I'm looking for a phono stage and I would be delighted if it also added a little sparkle to my Marantz. I have the older MCR603 by the way, the manual refers to it as Aux Out, but I presume this is the same?

Yes, it does really work! I've done it as outlined above. The sound is markedy smoother (less bright) through the Rega. The UK manual for the 610 says ' AUDIO OUT connector - used to connect devices equipped with analog audio inputs connectors or an external power amplifier.' Another version of the manual substitutes 'external pre-main amplifier'. The 603 may well be different.

 

[paddyb]

getting back to the original question , i have bypassed the 610 amps and it now goes through my integrated AS500, which adds a slighty more sparkle and life , the differnce though not as much as i thought, which goes to show how capable the little class D amps are in the marantz , plus there is another box again :roll: , which i wanted to avoid,

Does this really work? I didn't think that passing through to a second amp was worth doing unless you have a pre out on the first one? Wouldn't the output from the second amp be limited by the orginal signal? Interested to find out, as I've seen a few second hand amps recently as I'm looking for a phono stage and I would be delighted if it also added a little sparkle to my Marantz. I have the older MCR603 by the way, the manual refers to it as Aux Out, but I presume this is the same?

Yes, it does really work! I've done it as outlined above. The sound is markedy smoother (less bright) through the Rega. The UK manual for the 610 says ' AUDIO OUT connector - used to connect devices equipped with analog audio inputs connectors or an external power amplifier.' Another version of the manual substitutes 'external pre-main amplifier'. The 603 may well be different.

Intriguing! The 603 manual is laid out differently. In the front, this socket is detailed under a heading "Connecting Recording Compenents" and has a diagram showing "CD recorder / MD recorder / Tape deck" connecting to the Aux Out sockets. But I've just found another reference to it in the Information section at the back and it says "connect to an external pre-main ampifier".

So will this work in the same way?

Can anyone confirm if the 603 will work in the same way with an external amp?

 

[ela-ted]

Can you borrow an amp to try it with?

 

[paddyb]

Can you borrow an amp to try it with?

Not one thats any better than the 603.

 

[MajorFubar]

C'mon guys this really isn't rocket-science stuff. They're just line-outs on an amp. Until recently probably every integrated-amp/pre-amp ever invented had at least one set of fixed-level outputs, usually RCA or DIN, so you could connect a recorder, and it's been like that since the dawn of time. Where have you all been?

 

[paddyb]

C'mon guys this really isn't rocket-science stuff. They're just line-outs on an amp. Until recently probably every integrated-amp/pre-amp ever invented had at least one set of fixed-level outputs, usually RCA or DIN, so you could connect a recorder, and it's been like that since the dawn of time. Where have you all been?

Not everybody is as immersed in this world as you are MajorFubar, so sometimes novices like me need to ask these questions to get clarity on certain issues. Over the years I've learnt to never assume anything when it comes to tech.

As you say, from as far back as I can remember (as a child trying to hook a radio recorder up to my dads hi fi with a DIN cable), these line outs have been used to output to recording devices, I get that bit. I just seem to remember reading somewhere that puting one amp into another was generally a waste of time. My thinking then was that the second amp could only work with what the first amp provides it with, so it could add volume perhaps, but wouldn't have any effect on detail, soundstsage etc.

Now, my understanding has changed, and, if I'm correct, the line out bypasses the first amp and the signal it outputs is coming directly from the source (CD Player etc). In the case of an all in one system like the Marantz, its coming directly from its DAC, so it is functioning purely as CD Player/Streamer/Radio and all ampification is handled by the second amp?

So, if I was to find an amazing high end amp in a charity shop (it happens), the limiting factor would be the Marantz 's DAC, not its amp?

Right, back to testing those rockets...

 

[davedotco]

I think you need to be clear what you are talking about.

The Major is refering to functionality, and is quite correct, many amplifiers have fixed line level ouputs and they are, technically and in practice, exactly the same as the output from devices like tuners, phono stages or recorders. Ie it will work fine.

If you are talking about sound quality, then that is something else. The line out of any amplifier, including the 610, will be the signal from the selected source, internal or external, passed through any processing, ie phono eq, dac, etc, and a selector switch. Depending on the design, this could be more or less complex.

If the amplifier is of modest quality then this will impact on the quality of the signal so taking such an output to a much better amplifier is already compromised as you can not undo the 'damage' done by the first amplifier. For this reason the practice is not usually recommended, but it will work fine in terms of functionality.

 

[paddyb]

Thanks davedotco

As I said:

Over the years I've learnt to never assume anything when it comes to tech.

So I was nearer with my original understanding, but depending on the design of the first amp and compatibility with the second, there could be some degree of effectiveness in doing this? Of course if the first amp is just an amp, then there's little purpose (unless the first has some particular connectivity or feature that the second lacks) as you may as well just connect the source into the second amp. With an all in one, there is more reason to try this as an alternative to buying a separate CD player, streamer, tuner etc. There are a couple of people in this thread who seem to have had some success with this. It wouldn't be as good as dedicated separates, but might be a good "make the best of what you have" solution. Anyway, all a moot point for me as I haven't got a second amp, but I'm always looking for ways to improve my system without spending a huge amount of money.

 

[peterpiper]

my understanding is the signal from audio out has gone through no preamplification or power amplification so is only going to suffer the same degradation as if it went through the mcr610/603 internal amplifier network, it is not going through 2 amplifiers,

 

[MajorFubar]

As you say, from as far back as I can remember (as a child trying to hook a radio recorder up to my dads hi fi with a DIN cable), these line outs have been used to output to recording devices, I get that bit. I just seem to remember reading somewhere that puting one amp into another was generally a waste of time. My thinking then was that the second amp could only work with what the first amp provides it with, so it could add volume perhaps, but wouldn't have any effect on detail, soundstsage etc.

Aha...I get you now. That was only really true though back in the day when most integrated amps had active pre-amps, to boost the incoming signal. These days most (all?) integrateds usually have passive pre-amps, with no pre-amplification except for the turntable input. This change happened more or less when line-level sources replaced DIN-level sources. Line-level sources like CD players could be linked directly to a high-gain power-amp via a volume-pot without any pre-amplification. And that's basically what many post-'80 integrateds were.

I'm not sure exactly how it works now with most amps having electronic source selection, but to take my old Marantz PM66 as an example, the Tape Outs are more or less directly linked to the various line-inputs via the source-selector on the front: no electronics in the path at all. So basically what comes out of its Tape Outs is identical to the source, unless you want to measure the imperceptible difference of routing it through the source selector. To prove it I can even unplug the thing from the mains and I'll still get audio from the Tape Outs (except from the Phono input, or course!)

 

[matthewpiano]

my understanding is the signal from audio out has gone through no preamplification or power amplification so is only going to suffer the same degradation as if it went through the mcr610/603 internal amplifier network, it is not going through 2 amplifiers,

It certainly has to go through part of the 610s or 603s pre-amp circuit in order or the right source to be selected.

FWIW I tried my 610 through the Pioneer A30 when I had them both and found the 610 on its own more satisfying.

 

[davedotco]

All in ones and many AV receivers make very decent network/dac/pre-amps, at least on paper. Loads of functionality and, given that the limitations of components of this type is usually power amp and power supply, should work well.

I tried a Marantz NR1504 in this mode in a shop, much to the consternation of the sales staff, it certainly worked ok but it was difficult judging sound quality in that environment, love to try this, or something like it, at home.

 

[danielberwick]

I just purchased this for the sole purpose of having a network controllable streaming hub for both files on my NAS and Spotify that I can connect via the "Audio Out" to the RCA input into my HDVD800 headphone amp. It's arriving today and I did this as a shot in the dark, although Marantz have my full confidence in quality from the other devices I've used/own(ed) that this would have a great quality output connection and reasonable DAC to produce the signal.

It fills a capability hole in my setup with the features this unit has, and for me it seemed like the perfect device for this even without the intention of using wired speakers to the unit. I guess in the future I can put in some speakers directly off the unit if I have the need.

This is arriving in the post today. I am using a few sets of very good headphones, so any problems with this output stage should be glaringly obvious. Trying a CD against my current disk player (UD7007 via balanced output into the HDVD800's balanced inputs) and this should give a good like for like comparison. I can post my findings here after some experimenting.

Any specific requests for tests I could help out with?

 

[danielberwick]

That's good to know! I'll look forward to the listen and let you know on here how it goes.

 

[danielberwick]

Just one more thing to add. Seperate to the sound, the 610 itself is a joy to use. the screen works really well for what it's needed for and the remote apps allow you to see what you're up to and control network folder and spotify access easily. General speed and response is awesome with the possible exception of the time it takes to transition between input sources.

 

[danielberwick]

OK, first impressions of using the line level RCA (red & white aux/phono) output from the MCR610 into my headphone amp...

I only had a short time so I could only do some initial smoke testing, but I tested 3 scenarios with the same tracks. Alanis Morrisette "All I Really Want" from Jagged little Pill and Bon Jovi "Hey God" from These Days.
The 3 scenarios I tested were:
- Using the MCR610 to directly access Spotify
- Using AirPlay from the Spotify app on the iPhone 6 sent to the MCR610
- Streaming 320K MP3s ripped from CD stored on my NAS on the local network

Unfortunately I didn't have time to test directly with the CDs themselves, but in time I shall and I'll update it here.

Spotify accessed directly from MCA610:
Sibilance!!! My goodness it’s harsh, offensive even. I couldn’t listen for long and the problem was manifest on both tracks. Very disappointing. I could not find a Spotify quality setting on the MCA610 so maybe it’s pulling down 96kbps, which could explain this(?).

Spotify sent from iPhone via AirPlay:
No trace of that harsh sibilance?! Sounds very good, Spotify app is set to “Extreme” quality (320kbps stream) so maybe that’s the key.

Streaming MP3 from NAS:
Very good, the tracks are clear and pure. This is best of all 3 options.

Although I didn’t test the CD itself during this round of listening, it’s clear that none of these playback option on the RCA connection sound as good as playing a CD into the amp using the Marantz UD7007, although with the MP3 and AirPlay it's not so far off that it's really bad. The convenience outweighs the small drop in sound quality at the times I can't be bothered to hunt through 700 odd CDs in folders.
I’m yet to try direct CD in the 610 but I will soon which will indicate whether it’s the connection type or the media type. Luckily if I can manage to play the same CD on both the UD7007 and the MCR610 at exactly the same time (some pause and play pressing until they’re in sync) then I can easily switch the source on the amp between RCA and balanced that way I can hear the instant transition between sources!

One more thing, before I retired to bed, I found there was a firmware update (I should have done that out of the box) so maybe, just maybe, the harshness from direct Spotify has been fixed.

I'll try different styles soon, some classical. Mari Kodama playing Beethoven's piano sonatas is a good test of simple pure music, then some Berlioz operas for powerful voice and Mozarts Requiem because it's complex and awesome. Then the original CD release of Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms" because for me that's the benchmark of perfectly mastered and engineered albums, and Rage Against the Machine's eponymous album, again because it has great SQ and great music.

I’ll do more and report back, but for now hopefully that’s of interest.

It's sounding like this is becoming a review, but as it's RCA output only I can't really justify it as one.