Lush Midrange with wider sound stage

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Dear All,

I went for auditioning for new HiFi a month ago at Superfi. Ended up buying
NAD c326BEE and Quad 22L2. It sounded great in the shop. NAD C326BEE is rated at 50Watt but well capable of driving Quad 22L2 floor standers.

I am using QED silverline cable. I havent yet bought a source , but I currently use Sony NWZ-E454 mp3 player, songs ripped at 320KBPS . I know source might be a weak link but I love the presentation and sound stage of Sony with Koss headphones. I am expecting similar sound presentation when I connect Sony mp3 player to NAD-QUAD setup. Bass is great - punchier and tight, highs are smooth.

The problem is , I am feeling something is missing from NAD-QUAD sound presentation.It's been month ,so I suppose I did give fair time for Amp and Speakers for burn-in.

I need lot more open , airy mid range and wider sound stage and more details. (the one i get from Sony-Koss )
Would Musical Fidelity or Marantz higher end model make a difference or changing speakers first is more important ?


I am open for changing amp or speaker, new/used each within budget of £600. (will try to audition the new models suggested.)

Thanks
Sam
 
Hi Sam

I will do my best with this

Part of the difficulty is that "lush" midrange with wider soundstage is so subjective.

Hear are some thoughts:

Your source is 320 Kbps, but a CD is 1411 Kbps so you are losing the information you need to get a great sound. ie You need to do rip with full resolution intact.

IMO The speaker wire is also at fault....try some Van Damme UP LC - OFC. It's cheap, warmer sounding and VFM.

If having sorted source and speaker cable, and are still have a problem, only then look at amps/speakers.

The Nad is by no means bright so the next step is probably speakers. It is also worth bearing Arcam in mind, as it too should put you in the direction you're after.

Speakers to consider would be from Dynaudio (2/6 or 2/7), just make sure you do the cheaper options first (ie. Bitrate and Speaker Cable)

Regards

Cno
 
Thanks .

I will try the Van Damme cables and see if it makes difference. I do have Dynaudio audience 52SE. Still not open , airy sound

I want. Hoping some Quad 22L2 owner could also post their experience.

Arcam will be on my short list. Any particular CDP and Amp model form Arcam ?

Sameer
 
Can you borrow a good CD player, just to see the effect that a better source will have. Info lost at this stage is never made up, and the dac in the CD player will be superior.

Once you know the cause of the problem it is easier to sort.....it could be that a stand alone dac could help.

The MF M series is clean, clear, revealing and dynamic, which I suspect would show up the source even more. There are also makes like Moon, Primare and Leema.

As for which particular Arcams to look at, Plastic Penguin is your man. He has a better working knowledge than me.

Sometimes when you go after a lush midrange, it can be at the expense of "open and airy". I think that possibly Leema Pulse + Dynaudio or Arcam + Quad might work.

Regards

Cno
 
CnoEvil said:
Hi Sam I will do my best with this Part of the difficulty is that "lush" midrange with wider soundstage is so subjective. Hear are some thoughts: Your source is 320 Kbps, but a CD is 1411 Kbps so you are losing the information you need to get a great sound. ie You need to do rip with full resolution intact. IMO The speaker wire is also at fault....try some Van Damme UP LC - OFC. It's cheap, warmer sounding and VFM. If having sorted source and speaker cable, and are still have a problem, only then look at amps/speakers. The Nad is by no means bright so the next step is probably speakers. It is also worth bearing Arcam in mind, as it too should put you in the direction you're after. Speakers to consider would be from Dynaudio (2/6 or 2/7), just make sure you do the cheaper options first (ie. Bitrate and Speaker Cable) Regards Cno

Apologies for the interjection, but a NAD C326BEE wont drive Dynaudio DM 2/6's or 7's well at all. Have tried it myself. The best thing to do would be to go for something by Musical Fidelity in the used market, like an A3 intergrated. Be careful with Arcam, they sound very 'warm' and can often not sound as clear as a more neutral amp like the Musical Fidelity stuff.
 
samstereo said:
Dear All,

I went for auditioning for new HiFi a month ago at Superfi. Ended up buying
NAD c326BEE and Quad 22L2. It sounded great in the shop. NAD C326BEE is rated at 50Watt but well capable of driving Quad 22L2 floor standers.

I am using QED silverline cable. I havent yet bought a source , but I currently use Sony NWZ-E454 mp3 player, songs ripped at 320KBPS . I know source might be a weak link but I love the presentation and sound stage of Sony with Koss headphones. I am expecting similar sound presentation when I connect Sony mp3 player to NAD-QUAD setup. Bass is great - punchier and tight, highs are smooth.

The problem is , I am feeling something is missing from NAD-QUAD sound presentation.It's been month ,so I suppose I did give fair time for Amp and Speakers for burn-in.

I need lot more open , airy mid range and wider sound stage and more details. (the one i get from Sony-Koss )
Would Musical Fidelity or Marantz higher end model make a difference or changing speakers first is more important ?


I am open for changing amp or speaker, new/used each within budget of £600. (will try to audition the new models suggested.)

Thanks
Sam

I'd like to add my tuppence worth: A few years ago WHFI tested Nad 352 with Quad 11 (original) and they concluded: They likened it to a Real Madrid side. It had all the star attributes, in the main, but they felt (from memory) the Nad didn't quite have enough oomph to make the whole system sing.

I've heard this so many times on here and from dealers that the Nad, despite its 'paper power', in reality they struggle with half tricky speakers.
 
Monstrous said:
CnoEvil said:
Hi Sam I will do my best with this Part of the difficulty is that "lush" midrange with wider soundstage is so subjective. Hear are some thoughts: Your source is 320 Kbps, but a CD is 1411 Kbps so you are losing the information you need to get a great sound. ie You need to do rip with full resolution intact. IMO The speaker wire is also at fault....try some Van Damme UP LC - OFC. It's cheap, warmer sounding and VFM. If having sorted source and speaker cable, and are still have a problem, only then look at amps/speakers. The Nad is by no means bright so the next step is probably speakers. It is also worth bearing Arcam in mind, as it too should put you in the direction you're after. Speakers to consider would be from Dynaudio (2/6 or 2/7), just make sure you do the cheaper options first (ie. Bitrate and Speaker Cable) Regards Cno

Apologies for the interjection, but a NAD C326BEE wont drive Dynaudio DM 2/6's or 7's well at all. Have tried it myself. The best thing to do would be to go for something by Musical Fidelity in the used market, like an A3 intergrated. Be careful with Arcam, they sound very 'warm' and can often not sound as clear as a more neutral amp like the Musical Fidelity stuff.

To be honest, I was hoping that people with more direct experience than me, would chip in.

The problem is achieving "Lush" with "open and airy", at the same time. As you say Arcam can sound warmer and MF open and airy.

All we can do is throw out ideas for the OP to try.

Cno
 
CnoEvil said:
Monstrous said:
CnoEvil said:
Hi Sam I will do my best with this Part of the difficulty is that "lush" midrange with wider soundstage is so subjective. Hear are some thoughts: Your source is 320 Kbps, but a CD is 1411 Kbps so you are losing the information you need to get a great sound. ie You need to do rip with full resolution intact. IMO The speaker wire is also at fault....try some Van Damme UP LC - OFC. It's cheap, warmer sounding and VFM. If having sorted source and speaker cable, and are still have a problem, only then look at amps/speakers. The Nad is by no means bright so the next step is probably speakers. It is also worth bearing Arcam in mind, as it too should put you in the direction you're after. Speakers to consider would be from Dynaudio (2/6 or 2/7), just make sure you do the cheaper options first (ie. Bitrate and Speaker Cable) Regards Cno

Apologies for the interjection, but a NAD C326BEE wont drive Dynaudio DM 2/6's or 7's well at all. Have tried it myself. The best thing to do would be to go for something by Musical Fidelity in the used market, like an A3 intergrated. Be careful with Arcam, they sound very 'warm' and can often not sound as clear as a more neutral amp like the Musical Fidelity stuff.

To be honest, I was hoping that people with more direct experience than me, would chip in. The problem is achieving "Lush" with "open and airy", at the same time. As you say Arcam can sound warmer and MF open and airy. All we can do is throw out ideas for the OP to try. Cno

If the OP puts "Nad" in the title, I can think of two who'll come scampering...😉
 
Thaiman said:
You need a valve amp if lush midrange is what you after.

+1

check out Icon Audio or Prima Luna or Cayin for affordable tube amps. and don't let lowish power outputs put you off. despite some mere 20 - 40 Wpc many tube amps will sound much more prominent than many 50 - 70-tish Wpc solid state designs. the reason? tube amps are mainly (but not always) class A (as opposed being class AB which is always the case on budget end of SS) and therefore must have high efficiency power supply and usually are much simpler designs than SS.

p.s. my pick on this budget end would be Icon Audio Stereo 40 mkIII 🙂
 
oldric_naubhoff said:
Thaiman said:
You need a valve amp if lush midrange is what you after.

+1

check out Icon Audio or Prima Luna or Cayin for affordable tube amps. and don't let lowish power outputs put you off. despite some mere 20 - 40 Wpc many tube amps will sound much more prominent than many 50 - 70-tish Wpc solid state designs. the reason? tube amps are mainly (but not always) class A (as opposed being class AB which is always the case on budget end of SS) and therefore must have high efficiency power supply and usually are much simpler designs than SS.

p.s. my pick on this budget end would be Icon Audio Stereo 40 mkIII 🙂

+2

Probably the only way to get all the attributes your looking for.

Cno
 
CnoEvil said:
oldric_naubhoff said:
Thaiman said:
You need a valve amp if lush midrange is what you after.

+1

+2 Probably the only way to get all the attributes your looking for. Cno

+3 Valve is unsaid synonymous to midrange in a good way.. But how much sugar you can handle is upto you. There are DACs with Valves (which add almost none to very little) and then pre-amps and / or power-amps with valves. The lush'ness' of midrange goes higher when valves are added closer to the speakers.

You got to try some, to know what it is and ofcourse there is a ClassA amplification as well, I guess.
 
I am getting some great response ... thanks

I have made a list of things TO DO from all above replies:

1.Try the Van Damme cables


2.try with CD player instead of mp3's-

3.Amplifiers : Could be NAD c326BEE not enough for Quad 22L2 so try following ...

-Arcam will be on my short list ("careful with Arcam, they sound very 'warm' and can often not sound as clear as a more neutral amp like the Musical Fidelity stuff")
-MF M series , A3
-Leema Pulse

valve amp
- check out Icon Audio or Prima Luna or Cayin for affordable tube amps.
- Icon Audio Stereo 40 mkIII

Need to short list Speakers and CDP :


How about Marantz CD6003 as source ?.. will fit my budget for source)

would ideally like floorstandards (room is about 22'x15' ).

Which are lively speaker suited for jazz, classical, vocal ?
 
samstereo said:
I am getting some great response ... thanks

I have made a list of things TO DO from all above replies:

1.Try the Van Damme cables


2.try with CD player instead of mp3's-

3.Amplifiers : Could be NAD c326BEE not enough for Quad 22L2 so try following ...

-Arcam will be on my short list ("careful with Arcam, they sound very 'warm' and can often not sound as clear as a more neutral amp like the Musical Fidelity stuff")
-MF M series , A3
-Leema Pulse

valve amp
- check out Icon Audio or Prima Luna or Cayin for affordable tube amps.
- Icon Audio Stereo 40 mkIII

Need to short list Speakers and CDP :


How about Marantz CD6003 as source ?.. will fit my budget for source)

would ideally like floorstandards (room is about 22'x15' ).

Which are lively speaker suited for jazz, classical, vocal ?

There is a good chance that your speakers may sound quite different, when you have sorted all the up-stream problems.

Cno
 
Your source files aren't the problem. 320kbps is absolutely fine. Rest assured, most people are hard pushed to tell the difference between that and CD quality. Most people toil at 192kbps far less the higher one, so don't be too hard on yourself.

To put it another way, the recording quality is by far and away the more important. I would rather listen to a 192kbps MP3 of a great mastering job of a favourite album than a poor mastering of the same album at 1411kbps.

As for the rest, play about with speaker positioning and see how you get on in the first instance.
 
UPDATE : I played with speakers positioning yesterday evening and it's making vast improvement in soundstage. Midrange became more clear. Earlier they were 1.5' from rear walls and 2.5' from side walls , 6' apart. Improvement came when I moved them 3' from rear walls and kept straight. That is as much as I could move them with my current furniture setup. Later , I push them back again and plugged towel in bass ports , and again I heard the clean midrange that I was missing. it was excess bass affecting the mids. Like to thank everyone here to made me experiment with current setup. I was almost going to throw it.

I had played with speaker positioning in the first week that I had bought the speakers, but did not hear any noticeable difference then. That could be becase of speakers were not broken in. Still not getting the perfect stereo image. (where I can feel singer is in center). Over the weekend I am planning to make changes to entire furniture setup to create more room. And report back.

Also , Like to ask if adding Musical Fidelity used A3CR power amp and use NAD 326 as preamp would significatly open up the QUADs ?

Next is to get a decent Source. I plan to keep all my music as flac , Any good new/used DAC under £400. Not considering CA DacMagic , i think it might not be my taste. Apart from that I only know V-DAC ? Is there any thing better than V-DAC ?

-Sameer
 
i agree with others here, but would also say go for copper speaker cable instead of silver.

if you can find a shop that will let you demo speaker cable you'll be laughing, unless your the serious kind, then you'll just be pleased in a reserved kind of way.

good luck and happy listening
 
Hi Sam, I have the quad 22L2s. My experience is that they need quite a bit of power to drive them. I started off with an arcam A70 at 50 watts. I just wasn't happy with the sound. The sound really opened up when I teamed it with a second hand arcam fmj a32 and then Improved again when I added the matching power amp (P35), bi-amped and bi-wired. I'm now very happy with the combination. As you've found too, they do seem to be sensitive to placement. Good luck with it all!
 
I wouldn't be too mad on the 326 as a pre-amp, beyond a stop-gap. I'd probably work out you want from the set-up, detail, warmth, etc., and go from there. If you look round on Ebay, you'll probably find quite a few dealers who're offering higher quality pre-amps but thanks to the distance selling regs, means you can hold for 7 days and return if not suitable. Worth investigating I think. Icon Audio has a passive pre-amp for £250, likewise NVA (Nene Valley Audio) for about £100 more and I imagine they'd be a step-up from the NAD.
 
Well finally speakers settled at 2 Ft behind and 3 Ft from the side. Thats as much space I could give with my current furniture setting .Quads 22l2 sure hate walls ! They also need empty space around else it's affect the stereo image.

I am getting close to the kinda of sound I was hoping. After long time I enjoyed the music yesterday.

Amp upgrade plans are on hold . I will sort out source and rest of the things.

I am going ahead with V-DAC . Also many recommended to try copper wire instead of silver. So going to order "Van Damme Professional Blue Series Studio 2.5mm" .

Cheers
Sameer
 
the record spot said:
I wouldn't be too mad on the 326 as a pre-amp, beyond a stop-gap. I'd probably work out you want from the set-up, detail, warmth, etc., and go from there. If you look round on Ebay, you'll probably find quite a few dealers who're offering higher quality pre-amps but thanks to the distance selling regs, means you can hold for 7 days and return if not suitable. Worth investigating I think. Icon Audio has a passive pre-amp for £250, likewise NVA (Nene Valley Audio) for about £100 more and I imagine they'd be a step-up from the NAD.

Thanks. Will definitely keep in mind when I go for pre amp upgrade.
 
Pedej0e said:
i agree with others here, but would also say go for copper speaker cable instead of silver.

if you can find a shop that will let you demo speaker cable you'll be laughing, unless your the serious kind, then you'll just be pleased in a reserved kind of way.

good luck and happy listening

I have just placed order for Van Damme Blue 2.5mm. Will be able to test it on weekend.
 
UPDATE :

-Van Damme Cables proved to be bright in my setup. So switched back to QED silver cable.

-Now I have V-DAC as source connected to laptop. Even Spotify 128kbps sounds great. Significant improvement over Sony mp3 player.

Would like to ask about how NAD c326bee Amplifier sounds with old songs . I played some old songs(indian cinema of 1950's) . It's not very enjoyable . I know many will say it's because of poor recording quality. But when I listen same songs using sony mp3player - m-audio AV40's . it's sounds sweet . Vocals and intruments are more natural. Could this be because of NAD c326bee pre-amplification ?
 
I used to use Audioquest Type IV single core copper cable. Nice and warm sound. If you want to get close to that without a massive outlay, just buy 10m (or whatever length you need) of some 322 strand multistrand copper cable, which ended up doing the same job, for the same sound but for a fraction of the cost. £5.49 from Digitalis Direct (who I bought it from). System sounds great and as good as it did before with the Audioquest.
 
samstereo said:
UPDATE :

-Van Damme Cables proved to be bright in my setup. So switched back to QED silver cable.

-Now I have V-DAC as source connected to laptop. Even Spotify 128kbps sounds great. Significant improvement over Sony mp3 player.

Would like to ask about how NAD c326bee Amplifier sounds with old songs . I played some old songs(indian cinema of 1950's) . It's not very enjoyable . I know many will say it's because of poor recording quality. But when I listen same songs using sony mp3player - m-audio AV40's . it's sounds sweet . Vocals and intruments are more natural. Could this be because of NAD c326bee pre-amplification ?

The Van Damme shouldn't sound bright unless highlighting a problem upstream...Did you use the Van Damme with the V-Dac in place?

I still believe that the quality of the source may be contributing to your problem.....the fact that the V-Dac made such a difference is possibly pointing to this.

Did you ever manage to borrow a decent CD player to test this theory?

Cno
 

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