List of possible upgrades, Plenty of time. But want to start the thought process.

[fr0g]

Ok...

I moved house recently and my main 2 systems are currently...

PC, AVI ADM9T and BK XXLS400 sub. also using a Beresford 7520 DAC for the physical volume (sounds exactly the same).

Living room listening area. Arcam A80 amp and Dali Ikon 6. Squeezebox and Beresford DAC / Arcam CD7SE

To be honest I am enjoying "listening" to the second system far more these days, and I love the Dalis. And in the place they are, the Arcam amp is doing a fine job. I don't need more.

I am however thinking of upgrading this system, or at least the speakers. Listening at night, low volume, they are sublime. But turn it up and some of my more bassy music makes the Dalis struggle.

So. What to do...?

Priority...I don't really want stands, so other than wildly out of my range and Dynaudio Xeo, there is no active option.

I have no problem with passives. Value is not as good, but as I like my amp, then good passives would be fine. They will never be used at reference levels of volume...

I am considering the higher end Dalis (I love the sound), but also the Magnepan MG 12 or even 1.7. Would my amp suffice? Would I need a sub?

I reckon my max budget will be what I can sell my motorbike for in Spring, minus a grand... So at least £2000.

No big ugly subs (although I would consider something like the excellent Minivee)

As I said, no rush, it is only for investigative purposes for now...

 

[fr0g]

bah, can't edit first post!

Anyway,of course budget will include what I can get for my 6s AND vokal 2. So getting closer to 3k.

 

[alienmango]

I don't really know the best way of doing this but could you get stereo subs and cross them over, say at 80 hz (well above the tuning frequency of the dali's). You say you like the sound of the dali speakers so this may allow you to keep all the parts you like about your sound and improve it. Google minidsp, there may be a better option out there. Alternatively this should give you enough bass at reasonable levels without struggling...... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FULL-OPUS-AUDIO-PA-SPEAKER-SYSTEM-RIG-HD-Amplifier-/190920330777?pt=UK_ConElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL&hash=item2c73bd0e19

 

[fr0g]

I don't really know the best way of doing this but could you get stereo subs and cross them over, say at 80 hz (well above the tuning frequency of the dali's). You say you like the sound of the dali speakers so this may allow you to keep all the parts you like about your sound and improve it. Google minidsp, there may be a better option out there. Alternatively this should give you enough bass at reasonable levels without struggling...... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FULL-OPUS-AUDIO-PA-SPEAKER-SYSTEM-RIG-HD-Amplifier-/190920330777?pt=UK_ConElec_SpeakersPASystems_RL&hash=item2c73bd0e19

Hmm.

Ignoring the bonkers link, 2 subs is not gonna happen. One small one maybe, and that would be enough, but it would require extra electronics.

But yes, the sound of the Dalis is excellent. It just struggles low down when the volume is above average.

 

[johngw]

Priority...I don't really want stands, so other than wildly out of my range and Dynaudio Xeo, there is no active option.

Have a look at the Adam ARTist 6. Active floorstanders and IMO superior to the AVI ADMs. Adds to the ADM's strength with more low-end reach and a bit more (clean) sparkle at the top. About EUR 1,100 online from thomann.

Auditioning may be tricky as they are not exactly mainstream (why?!) but there are a few dealers in London that stock them. Where are you based?

 

[fr0g]

Priority...I don't really want stands, so other than wildly out of my range and Dynaudio Xeo, there is no active option.

Have a look at the Adam ARTist 6. Active floorstanders and IMO superior to the AVI ADMs. Adds to the ADM's strength with more low-end reach and a bit more (clean) sparkle at the top. About EUR 1,100 online from thomann.

Auditioning may be tricky as they are not exactly mainstream (why?!) but there are a few dealers in London that stock them. Where are you based?

Sweden.

I forgot about about those tbh. Thanks for the shout.

 

[DocG]

I am considering the higher end Dalis (I love the sound), but also the Magnepan MG 12 or even 1.7. Would my amp suffice? Would I need a sub?

I think you could get away with the A80 driving the Maggies (though they will sound better with more current). If budget allows, go for the 1.7 (massively better than the MG12 IMO). If you're used to the bottom end provided by a sub, you will need one with the Maggies too, for sure. And IMO it'll have to be sealed, to play clean and fast. Maggies would need 3-4 ft of air behind them, as a minimum: to be taken into account too!

 

[CnoEvil]

Arcam goes well with Kef and PMC, and I would also throw in Vienna Acoustics.
For subs, I like the Velodyne SPL 800 Ultra and Paradigm Seismic 110, though I suspect the Minivee will meet your needs for 2 channel.

 

[fr0g]

I am considering the higher end Dalis (I love the sound), but also the Magnepan MG 12 or even 1.7. Would my amp suffice? Would I need a sub?

I think you could get away with the A80 driving the Maggies (though they will sound better with more current). If budget allows, go for the 1.7 (massively better than the MG12 IMO). If you're used to the bottom end provided by a sub, you will need one with the Maggies too, for sure. And IMO it'll have to be sealed, to play clean and fast. Maggies would need 3-4 ft of air behind them, as a minimum: to be taken into account too!

Damn, that rules them out if it is important. ;(

 

[basshound]

Think you should spend most of your budget on speaker and mains cables...... :rofl: sorry couldn`t resist

 

[fr0g]

Arcam goes well with Kef and PMC, and I would also throw in Vienna Acoustics. For subs, I like the Velodyne SPL 800 Ultra and Paradigm Seismic 110, though I suspect the Minivee will meet your needs for 2 channel.

The problem I have is testing multiple speakers. There are 2 local Hifi stores and neither sell those brands. The advantage with the brands I can easily audition is that I can borrow a pair for home dem...no questions asked.

I was tempted by the Magnepans, but it seems space may be an issue.

If I change speakers to more passives, the first candidates I have in mind are Dali Mentor 6. As I said, I love the Dali sound, especially the sweet top end. I just need to somehow improve higher volume bass control.

I am wondering if spending the money on the best sub I can buy, and a miniDSP as alienmango suggested (keeping the Ikons) may be an option?

 

[fr0g]

Think you should spend most of your budget on speaker and mains cables...... :rofl: sorry couldn`t resist

Ha Ha. (in a very ironic tone)

 

[CnoEvil]

Sorry, I didn't know what you had available.

The sub route should work if carefully integrated. The Velodyne I mentioned has built-in EQ, and is a very powerful wee beastie.

 

[DocG]

The advantage with the brands I can easily audition is that I can borrow a pair for home dem...no questions asked.

I was tempted by the Magnepans, but it seems space may be an issue.

If you can get a pair of Magnepan 1.7s for a home demo, you can judge for yourself. Magnepan sells MMGW on-wall speakers. So I might have put it too strict ... Let's say they're less brilliant (soundstage; bass performance) the closer you put them to the wall. Only you can decide if the end result is good enough a compromise (and I guess an acoustic panel behind each speaker can reduce the problem).

If you have easy access, give them a try, they're rather special! :cheers:

 

[alienmango]

The problem with adding a sub in stereo is usually that the main speakers still play full range...

It's madness to me that in home cinema it's so common for a receiver to just cross over speakers at 40-80hz but it's seen as being rare/specialist in hifi. (Anyone knoow why?)

With regards to the minidsp I've never used it. Whats your source, is it a dac, cd player, vinyl?

I would say go to diyaudio.com and as there in the subwoofer forum, tell them your equipment including dac and they will tell you how to connect it. Not many here will be able to help with this specific thing.

Here's a link for the minidspp anyhow http://www.minidsp.com/applications/digital-crossovers/subwoofer-integration-with-minidsp

 

[fr0g]

The advantage with the brands I can easily audition is that I can borrow a pair for home dem...no questions asked.

I was tempted by the Magnepans, but it seems space may be an issue.

If you can get a pair of Magnepan 1.7s for a home demo, you can judge for yourself. Magnepan sells MMGW on-wall speakers. So I might have put it too strict ... Let's say they're less brilliant (soundstage; bass performance) the closer you put them to the wall. Only you can decide if the end result is good enough a compromise (and I guess an acoustic panel behind each speaker can reduce the problem).

If you have easy access, give them a try, they're rather special! :cheers:

Heh. I do want to hear some, but they would need to be quite close at the back. And it would be a 600 km round trip

 

[fr0g]

The problem with adding a sub in stereo is usually that the main speakers still play full range...

It's madness to me that in home cinema it's so common for a receiver to just cross over speakers at 40-80hz but it's seen as being rare/specialist in hifi. (Anyone knoow why?)

With regards to the minidsp I've never used it. Whats your source, is it a dac, cd player, vinyl?

I would say go to diyaudio.com and as there in the subwoofer forum, tell them your equipment including dac and they will tell you how to connect it. Not many here will be able to help with this specific thing.

Here's a link for the minidspp anyhow http://www.minidsp.com/applications/digital-crossovers/subwoofer-integration-with-minidsp

Yep, I found that page, cheers. It would work perfectly. I use a Squeezebox/ Arcam CD7SE through a Beresford DAC and an Arcam A80 amp. So the Beresford would act as pre-amp and I could cross over around 60-80 Hz.

I used to use my Dalis in my AV system, and used them in "small" mode. That worked beautifully for music as the sub was taking everything above 80 Hz. The sound wasn't quite up to the standard of the Arcam, but wasn't far off.

 

[shooter]

If you like the Dali's then I would find the cause of the issue.
Couple of possibility's spring to mind, firstly room acoustics/speaker positioning and secondly damping factor of the amp.

 

[fr0g]

If you like the Dali's then I would find the cause of the issue. Couple of possibility's spring to mind, firstly room acoustics/speaker positioning and secondly damping factor of the amp.

Issue? I think you misunderstand. The speakers sound great. But as I listen to a lot of bass heavy electronica, they can struggle at higher volume. That's a problem with most speakers I've heard to be honest.

In fact the only speakers I have heard that didn't were some B&W 800D. They looked at me and said "Is that all you've got?"

When crossed over via my AV amp, the sound is much clearer when playing such music.

So my options are a more "full range" speaker, or some kind of crossover and sub. (or both! )

 

[Craig M.]

Please and thank you would be nice.

Sorry.

 

[JoelSim]

I used to have Dali Ikon 6 paired with A85/P85 Arcams. Lovely sound I agree, but the strength of both of these brands isn't in bass-heavy music. Beautiful with voice and for relaxing.

If you want more bass friendly, then as you say B&W will work well, as do ProAc (my Tablettes sounded great even though they were small they were very tight, made me want to dance around the room). Don't know about the floorstanders by ProAc unfortunately.

The Kudos I have at the moment are great, I listen to Ibiza Global radio all day on them.

 

[alienmango]

Cross them over to a sub or get bigger speakers...

The basic problem is the dali's you own "only" have 2x 6.5 inch woofers. Moving to B&W isn't going to solve things, unless you get the really expensive ones which suprise suprise have bigger bass drivers eg B&W 800. They have roughly 3 times the cone area, the bass drivers are not doing midrange and likely they have far far higher excursion......

You like the Dali sound so the Ikon 7 MK 2 would improve things a bit without much risk, you get a another woofer but it's not going to be THAT different, if 2x6.5 is really not doing it for you the 3x6.5's won't blow you over.

Maybe consider focal 948, midrange isn't coming from a bass driver so you can probably push the 2x8 inch woofers quite hard before you notice distortion.

 

[DocG]

The advantage with the brands I can easily audition is that I can borrow a pair for home dem...no questions asked.

I was tempted by the Magnepans, but it seems space may be an issue.

If you can get a pair of Magnepan 1.7s for a home demo, you can judge for yourself. Magnepan sells MMGW on-wall speakers. So I might have put it too strict ... Let's say they're less brilliant (soundstage; bass performance) the closer you put them to the wall. Only you can decide if the end result is good enough a compromise (and I guess an acoustic panel behind each speaker can reduce the problem).

If you have easy access, give them a try, they're rather special! :cheers:

Heh. I do want to hear some, but they would need to be quite close at the back. And it would be a 600 km round trip

Wether you call that "easy access" is open for debate... :huh:

 

[shooter]

If you like the Dali's then I would find the cause of the issue. Couple of possibility's spring to mind, firstly room acoustics/speaker positioning and secondly damping factor of the amp.

Issue? I think you misunderstand. The speakers sound great. But as I listen to a lot of bass heavy electronica, they can struggle at higher volume. That's a problem with most speakers I've heard to be honest.

In fact the only speakers I have heard that didn't were some B&W 800D. They looked at me and said "Is that all you've got?"

When crossed over via my AV amp, the sound is much clearer when playing such music.

So my options are a more "full range" speaker, or some kind of crossover and sub. (or both! )

I read it as the amp isn't driving the speakers properly at higher volumes? Or that the speakers are eing overdriven but i presumed the former because of the amp you using. What i was getting at was with your limited availabilty to audition buying speakers may not the the answer...

Playing loud continuous music requires the amp to have headroom over the speaker giving the amp total control. When i used to run the Totems the amp i used output nearly 400 watts into an 4 ohm load and 500 in to 2 the result was huge spl's with headroom and only pushed to the brink did the Totems give in, the drivers used to touch.

More cones will give you better results but i'm using a single 5.5 inch driver in a room over 200m2 nd it will give me bass when its there. What i'm saying is that whatever speaks you use if you dont have the control at high spl's you never will.

Just to pick up on the sub, a good an idea as it is when you turn up the volume unless you have totally done away with the Dali woofer cone via mini dsp you will encounter the same problem at high volume in which case you could in theory stick a tweeter on top of the sub and run it that way discarding the Dali's. What you would end up with is a Bose system in another guise...

 

[steve_1979]

If you like the Dali's then adding a good quality subwoofer crossed over using an AV receiver seems like the most obvious choice.

Why don't you want any standmounts?
(The new ADM9's or Quested S7R's with the matching subwoofers would by my choice for under £3,000)