Kegworth hifi show

[insider9]

I have no doubt that Exakt would trample Minidsp. Saying that I believe Minidsp is excellent value for money but in a different league to Linn approach.

 

I can't comment on Minidsp but I'd be wary about extolling the virtues of Linn Exakt too much. 

I have listened to a number of Exakt systems and pretty much all of them have left me with an empty feeling.   I found it to be sterile, non-musical and pretty lifeless to be honest.  I think Linn have screwed up big time with it and all apart from die-hard Linnies will baulk at the extortionate cost involved in embracing it. I walked away from it as an upgrade path some time ago and can't see it remaining in Linn's offering (at least in its present guise) long term. 

I know some Linn dealers who absolutely hate it.

In an age where people are striving to combine quality and simplicity, I have never quite been sure how their idea of adding in an extremely expensive digital crossover box makes any sense at all.

 

 

Thanks for chipping in Paul. I should probably clarify my comments in regards to Exakt are as an approach to have a linear phase system. It just works. It's not so much as specific products. I can't comment on the particular boxes nor do I have an extended listening experience.

Extortionate cost? Probably, especially if the basic setup is as you say non-musical. You could use different amps, you know

Dealers hating it? Not surprised. It's not a product for everyone.

Will it survive in current form? I don't know. If it evolves to something better we'll all benefit.

 

[BigH]

No I didn’t imply/mean they are all rubbish, unknown brands are not tested by the market so they probably are not as good.

Mainstream commercialised music is great to a large degree because people buy it. Otherwise artists can’t exist and be great. There could be a guy making CDs himself but if it doesn’t get to a big market, how on earth am I going to know about it and appreciate it being good. I’ve got to go to some show miles away to decide on an obscure amp and getting one sent to me by a dealer. Why would I do that. I go to audio t, Sevenoaks and listen to stuff there which is selling and has been rated by thousands or millions buying it.

Vinyl wasn’t still going. It went and came back as a drop in the ocean of total sales. But it’s unlikely you will just be able to keep playing CDs assuming you like new music, when production of CDs stops. You’ll have to format shift. Maybe one reason vinyl exists is because people don’t buy or listen to new stuff, so it’s good for them. Not getting new stuff is a yawn for me.

I don't like most modern music as you know on other posts about albums of the year. You listen to some fairly obsure stuff so you seem to contradicting yourself. Yes I think most mainstream pop music is complete rubbish but I have thought that for over 40 years. There is a reason why bands like the Rolling Stones headlined Glastonbury in 2014. Some 70s bands have a huge following with young fans.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I think the point is most people, like me, see the hi Fi as a means to an end of just getting great sound quality. A hobby for me is building large scale radio control model aircraft, playing snooker etc.

Buying hi Fi is not a hobby in a true form, as like the article says if you start making this bigger in enjoyment than the music you are playing, which is the point of hi Fi , these types modding this or buying this obscure amp etc, are really into the quality of the sound and the degree of that more, rather than the end result to enjoy music. Music is universal. That’s why the people who go to the Bristol show are more into the music, rather than these types. So it is a bit looney in my view. It’s shown by the fact that lots of these people actually say they don’t listen to any new music or have real interest in modern music. They prefer to mess around with the valve or whatever.

 

[BigH]

I think the point is most people, like me, see the hi Fi as a means to an end of just getting great sound quality. A hobby for me is building large scale radio control model aircraft, playing snooker etc.

Buying hi Fi is not a hobby in a true form, as like the article says if you start making this bigger in enjoyment than the music you are playing, which is the point of hi Fi , these types modding this or buying this obscure amp etc, are really into the quality of the sound and the degree of that more, rather than the end result to enjoy music. Music is universal. That’s why the people who go to the Bristol show are more into the music, rather than these types. So it is a bit looney in my view. It’s shown by the fact that lots of these people actually say they don’t listen to any new music or have real interest in modern music. They prefer to mess around with the valve or whatever.

A bit like people who mess around with cables and start numerous posts about them, does that sound familiar?

Think you need to take another holiday.

 

[lindsayt]

I go to audio t, Sevenoaks and listen to stuff there which is selling and has been rated by thousands or millions buying it.

I've just checked out the Audio T website. They are into slimline ported speakers big time. There was far more variety of speaker design types at Kegworth than there is at Audio T. If you like slimline ported speakers, Audio T's the place to go.

I’m talking about good British hi fi, the best in the world,

Best at what?

Coming to think of it, there was a lot of Japanese, German, American, Swiss, Danish, French equipment putting in Brit-equalling performances at Kegworth.

Going to events like Kegworth will broaden your hi-fi mind more than visiting your local dealer.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

No I didn’t imply/mean they are all rubbish, unknown brands are not tested by the market so they probably are not as good.

Mainstream commercialised music is great to a large degree because people buy it. Otherwise artists can’t exist and be great. There could be a guy making CDs himself but if it doesn’t get to a big market, how on earth am I going to know about it and appreciate it being good. I’ve got to go to some show miles away to decide on an obscure amp and getting one sent to me by a dealer. Why would I do that. I go to audio t, Sevenoaks and listen to stuff there which is selling and has been rated by thousands or millions buying it.

Vinyl wasn’t still going. It went and came back as a drop in the ocean of total sales. But it’s unlikely you will just be able to keep playing CDs assuming you like new music, when production of CDs stops. You’ll have to format shift. Maybe one reason vinyl exists is because people don’t buy or listen to new stuff, so it’s good for them. Not getting new stuff is a yawn for me.

I don't like most modern music as you know on other posts about albums of the year. You listen to some fairly obsure stuff so you seem to contradicting yourself. Yes I think most mainstream pop music is complete rubbish but I have thought that for over 40 years. There is a reason why bands like the Rolling Stones headlined Glastonbury in 2014. Some 70s bands have a huge following with young fans.

it might sometimes be obscure, but it’s still commercial. So I’m not contradicting myself. Most on that list were pretty commercial. If it wasn’t on tidal and commercial I probably wouldn’t know about it. What’s interesting and slightly ironic is the Rolling Stones will probably be interested in new music artists, some pop music, all sorts, as most serious musicians are, and as they collaborate with pop musicians etc, but yet the people listening to music tastes of some time ago, still listen to the same older artists to exclusion of new stuff.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I go to audio t, Sevenoaks and listen to stuff there which is selling and has been rated by thousands or millions buying it.

I've just checked out the Audio T website. They are into slimline ported speakers big time. There was far more variety of speaker design types at Kegworth than there is at Audio T. If you like slimline ported speakers, Audio T's the place to go.

I’m talking about good British hi fi, the best in the world,

Best at what?

Coming to think of it, there was a lot of Japanese, German, American, Swiss, Danish, French equipment putting in Brit-equalling performances at Kegworth.

Going to events like Kegworth will broaden your hi-fi mind more than visiting your local dealer.

dont you think though Lindsay t that for a lot of these shows, whilst a system can sound good and is a very good basis for being inquisitive about a possible purchase of that brand, forming views that a hi Fi does sound good should be very comparative to what you’ve had before at home, and be home based. I’ve been to these demos and sometimes you think it sounds great but could it continue to be like that at home? Hi Fi is very nuanced and out of environment testing is often not a good idea. And when they all say it sounds great I wonder too how much of it is peer influenced at these bespoke shows. You’d really have to live with it for a bit. Group views on hi fi are not a good idea.

 

[insider9]

What dealer would I need to visit to listen to:

- full range speakers both floorstanders and standmounts
- omnidirectional speakers
- open baffle speakers
- speakers with 12 or 18 inch drivers
- SET amp
- valves galore from mono blocks, Pre/power to integrateds
- digital Reel to Reel
- amps, DACs and streamers made from kits
- Dirac Live, Linn Exakt and Minidsp, DSPeaker antimode used in variety of ways
- single point source speakers with few different implementations
- a record cleaner
- high efficiency speakers
- NOS DACs

That's not mentioning brands/prices just different ways of doing things.

What dealer would be enthusiastic about all these different ways of doing things?

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

The independents would probably tell you that they don’t agree with lots of the tech, which doesn’t suit their customers and isn’t as good or reliable or value etc, compared to more commercial offerings. Many of the things on your list, most customers buying a hifi have probably never heard of. I’ve no idea what antimode is. People don’t have 18 inch drivers in the home, or mostly.

i don’t get seeking out many of such things when it’s not necessarily a measure of being better to commercial offerings. It seems to me seeking out different technology for technology sake, but not just getting a great hi Fi or brand and sticking with it and enjoying it. There is always something new and it takes away from the music. It’s all too geekey for me, sorry.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I think the point is most people, like me, see the hi Fi as a means to an end of just getting great sound quality. A hobby for me is building large scale radio control model aircraft, playing snooker etc.

Buying hi Fi is not a hobby in a true form, as like the article says if you start making this bigger in enjoyment than the music you are playing, which is the point of hi Fi , these types modding this or buying this obscure amp etc, are really into the quality of the sound and the degree of that more, rather than the end result to enjoy music. Music is universal. That’s why the people who go to the Bristol show are more into the music, rather than these types. So it is a bit looney in my view. It’s shown by the fact that lots of these people actually say they don’t listen to any new music or have real interest in modern music. They prefer to mess around with the valve or whatever.

A bit like people who mess around with cables and start numerous posts about them, does that sound familiar?

Think you need to take another holiday.

everyone with good hi Fi messes around with cables. Those that don’t, don’t have great hifi, but it’s not like the endless pursuit for new tech, and this does this. It’s just a bit of wire mate.

I think you too if you want to make it personal.

 

[BigH]

What endless pursuit for new tech,?

think they are using mostly old gear.

 

[insider9]

everyone with good hi Fi messes around with cables. Those that don’t, don’t have great hifi

Hahaha, you say the funniest things Quest

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

It’s true though isn’t it? Why not? Look at people who have hi Fi say £5k worth and £10k worth or more, and then relate that to how much they spend on cables.

now look at people who have hi fi up to £2k value.

plot it on a graph and you will see spending on cables goes up in proportion to the value of the system, which most agree is normally related to performance. These are the people buying telleriums, chord signature etc. Those who have cheaper hi Fi, you probably find a reversed trend.

 

[insider9]

It’s true though isn’t it? Why not? Look at people who have hi Fi say £5k worth and £10k worth or more, and then relate that to how much they spend on cables.

now look at people who have hi fi up to £2k value.

plot it on a graph and you will see spending on cables goes up in proportion to the value of the system, which most agree is normally related to performance. These are the people buying telleriums, chord signature etc. Those who have cheaper hi Fi, you probably find a reversed trend. 

That's not what you said. You said

everyone with good hi Fi messes around with cables. Those that don’t, don’t have great hifi

These are two completely different things. We're going back to price again which is tiring. Great doesn't have to be expensive.

Once more based on objective, non biased observations (didn't know the value of systems prior to listening) from yesterday show it seems that the "cheaper" systems did far better for sound quality. Than the very expensive ones.

So if you're saying that a person who spend £20k is more likely to spend £2k on cables than a person who spent £2k on a system. I'd very much agree.

But is it guaranteed that the £20k system with £2k cables will sound better than £2k system then I'm afraid you can say that with any certainty.

 

[Paulq]

Thanks for chipping in Paul. I should probably clarify my comments in regards to Exakt are as an approach to have a linear phase system. It just works. It's not so much as specific products. I can't comment on the particular boxes nor do I have an extended listening experience.

Extortionate cost? Probably, especially if the basic setup is as you say non-musical. You could use different amps, you know

Dealers hating it? Not surprised. It's not a product for everyone.

Will it survive in current form? I don't know. If it evolves to something better we'll all benefit.

Ah no worries. Whenever I see the E word I feel compelled to respond, and that's probably the reason I am seen as somewhat of a Pariah on the Linn Forums these days.

I actually owe the introduction of Exakt a lot as it practically forced me to look at alternatives; such was my disgust at what they term an 'upgrade'. It's actually less musical than an Aktiv setup. With the help of a few on here, I moved away from a 'total Linn' setup and consider that I got far more for far less. For me to plug an Exaktbox and Linn Power amp into my system to go Exakt would result in a net cost between £10 and £12k whereas I am over the moon with the active speakers I have on the end of a Linn source. I like them that much I have today ordered a second pair.

Who said cheap HiFi can't be good?

I do take your point about the alternative amps completely - my ire is aimed more at the ridiculous Exaktboxes you have to add in.

 

[Paulq]

But is it guaranteed that the £20k system with £2k cables will sound better than £2k system then I'm afraid you can say that with any certainty.

+1 - there are some very very capable 'cheap' systems out there.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

That’s basically the problem with this show, and the wigwam ideal, that people think you can get premium for budget. It doesn’t wash with me. Walk around a show like Bristol it’s very easy to pick out stuff that is better, and it tends to be more expensive.

its just not real world and credible to say that a good £2k system can sound as good as a good £20k one, on objective comparative assessment of detail, realism, dynamics etc. The symptomatic problem becomes if people have no knowledge of the £20k system and living with it at home, or good experienxe of what it sounds like, self evidently for hunting out different more budget hi Fi in these types of shows, then they aren’t in any position to say if the £2k system is better, as they have no reference. On the other hand people with a reference and hearing it day in day out, know what the deal is. What does it do better, what does it do worse, and what on balance are you buying eg resolving ability and dynamic capabaility which most expensive hi Fi does better, and it’s blindingly obvious.

 

[daveh75]

This about sums it up

https://www.esquire.com/uk/culture/news/a8618/are-the-audiophiles-hearing-something-were-not/

Yes, it's an amuisng article.

It is however a terrible summary of Kegworth 2018 - where a big theme of the show was - as I said - how many fine sounding sub £999 systems there were.

I've never been to a HiFi show (Commercial or enthusiast) and frankly find the whole idea about as appealing as having my fingernails pulled out with pliers, but having seen some of the photos from Kegworth they do little to dispel the stereotypes...

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

When someone mentions the name of kegworth I remember the British midland 737 crash over the motorway on approach to East Midlands airport. The pilot shut the wrong engine down believing the smoke smell in the cabin came from the faulty engine which he knew on a previous model 737, fed bleed air con air to the cabin. In fact the 300series had bleed air on both engines. They couldn’t windmill start the ok engine at the speed involved, speed decayed, and a crash on the embankment. There are very interesting documentaries about it on you tube if anyone is an aviation buff like me. The pilots were scapegoated sadly.

 

[lindsayt]

I've never been to a HiFi show (Commercial or enthusiast) and frankly find the whole idea about as appealing as having my fingernails pulled out with pliers, but having seen some of the photos from Kegworth they do little to dispel the stereotypes...

Thank-you for your contribution daveh75.

Is there anyone else on this forum that didn't go to the show and would like to tell us why and who would like to express strong opinions on what the show was actually like?

Maybe the snow stopped you from going. You can tell us how you have a 2WD vehicle with summer tyres on and how you think that anyone with winter tyres or AWD is some sort of weird nerdy car geek. Cars are, after all, just a means of getting from A to B.

You can also tell us how your system and your approach to buying hi-fi is the one true way and any other philosophy is only good for obsessive trainspotter / model railway types.

 

[insider9]

What did you think about Boenicke W8? Did you get to hear them? Have we witnessed the future of audio?

 

[lindsayt]

Yes, I enjoyed my time in the Boenicke room. Their form factor will appeal to many on this forum.

I'd need to get them in a bake-off situation to say more than that.

Their price new and 2nd hand for the next few years would prevent me from being interested in buying them. The Kegworth show reinforced my highly personal view that no component is worth spending more than £500 on, unless there's a very real prospect that it will appreciate in value and it offers world class sonics.

 

[insider9]

Fascinating design and incredible build. I wouldn't necessarily be looking to buy but would also love to hear them in a bake off. Paul is in Huddersfield in case you didn't know

 

[Andrewjvt]

Of this speaker: Boenicke W8

 

[daveh75]

Starting @ 5.8K for the 'standard' version

https://www.audioemotion.co.uk/boenicke-audio-w8-10990-p.asp