Integrated amplifier with dac or external dac

newlash09

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Hi all,

I had previously sent an email to the propereitor of parasound in USA, enquiring if I should buy a p5 preamp and separate power amp or go with the halo integrated. He suggested to go with the halo integrated as it has a more optimised dac as per him.

So here is my query. Do manufacturers tune the dac to the amplification circuitry or is it just a standard dac plonked into the case. My doubt originates because lots of modern amplifiers these days are coming with built Dac's. Is it just for convenience or is some extra effort put in to match same to the amplification.

Thanks
 
newlash09 said:
Hi all,

I had previously sent an email to the propereitor of parasound in USA, enquiring if I should buy a p5 preamp and separate power amp or go with the halo integrated. He suggested to go with the halo integrated as it has a more optimised dac as per him.

So here is my query. Do manufacturers tune the dac to the amplification circuitry or is it just a standard dac plonked into the case. My doubt originates because lots of modern amplifiers these days are coming with built Dac's. Is it just for convenience or is some extra effort put in to match same to the amplification.

Thanks
I expect there are some of each. However, the mains reason for including a DAC is to boost sales. If you look at how fast DAC design has evolved and file formats changed, any decent amp will far outlive the DAC within it. I'd prefer an amp to concentrate on amplifying, but a DAC isn't too costly, and as long as it is well implemented it should not detract too much from the amp's performance, for example with unwanted noise.
 

insider9

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Good question. Don't think the answer is easy and I suspect it maybe more common than we think. Why else would be differences between European version of Onkyo A9010 (which has a dac) and the British one?

I agree with Nopiano here. Most amps will far outlive the DACs. I go for the best amp first and foremost and almost make a point of it not having a built in DAC.

When I buy a product I want it the best it can be for specific purpose. Every product is a compromise to meet a specific price point. The fewer features the better chances of both designer focus and parts being of the highest calibre.
 

Vladimir

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If Onkyo adds a DAC to its budget integrated then we become suspicious of craftsmanship, quality control, how comrpomised it is, should we go separates. But when Devialet does it and charges it up the ar$e then it's brilliant innovative technology, a step in the future and cutting the signal path, best practice, no clutter, eco. *biggrin*

It's the Amstrad mentality. If you get a whole system in a small box and it's cheap, how good can the turntable really be? Likely not very good. However a DAC is something different. Fact is, there's been DACs in integrateds ever since digital came out. It's just a daughter board inside the amp or outside in an aluminium profile box if you go separates. That is all, it's cheap to get it right. Which is why when you buy integrated you presume the engineer hasn't cheapened out by not allowing full 2Vrms output and asynchronous USB operation, but can we really know unless they state it in the specs? If too picky/suspicious of course you would go separate DAC and make sure you tick all the audiophile boxes so you sleep at night. Some ppl don't care and appreciate practicality. It's not that big of a deal IMO.
 

insider9

Well-known member
Vladimir, the reason I mentioned Onkyo is because these two amps via analogue inputs are said to sound different. I had the A9010(UK) and at it's price it just sounds better than other amps. Not sure whether it's coincidence it has a dac where others around this price point do.

Why would Onkyo go through this hassle? Surely it would be easier to make the UK version without a DAC and European which would sound the same via analogue but have an on board DAC. The differentiator could be price and nothing else.

Oh, and by the way I just picked up a Sony TAF370 for a £5 and it's sound incredible for the money :biggrin: easily as good as the aforementioned Onkyo.
 

insider9

Well-known member
chebby said:
If I buy an integrated amp with a built-in phono pre-amp, rather than a DAC, does that 'dilute' the quality of the whole thing too?
Hi Cheeky, I mean Chebby. Apologies ;)

All I said was

"The fewer features the better chances of both designer focus and parts being of the highest calibre."

I don't think anyone can argue with that.

Would it translate to poorer quality? Could do
Does it inflate the price of the item? Usually

I buy amplification that only does that as a rule. I don't want it to do anything else. I also don't want to pay for privilege of having something I'm not going to use. I'm not critical of people who do as we all have different needs. I never said it's poorer quality either.

It's valid for us as consumers to question things like that as it's our money and we want the best we can for it. And it's down to manufacturers to meet our needs.
 

chebby

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I get the feeling that a built-in phono stage, in an amplifier, would be viewed as a quality 'enhancement' whereas the built-in DAC is more likely to be seen as a quality 'compromise' such are the prevailing attitudes of 'traditionalists' towards any digital activity that has escaped the casing of a CD player!

(Of course if the built-in phono stage is found on the turntable itself then it reverts to being a 'bad thing' :) )
 

insider9

Well-known member
chebby said:
I get the feeling that a built-in phono stage, in an amplifier, would be viewed as a quality 'enhancement' whereas the built-in DAC is more likely to be seen as a quality 'compromise' such are the prevailing attitudes of 'traditionalists' towards any digital activity that has escaped the casing of a CD player!

(Of course if the built-in phono stage is found on the turntable itself then it reverts to being a 'bad thing' :) )
Interesting observation and quite right might I add. There are also pragmatists that only want what they need and nothing else even if it's free :)
 

ErwinC

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Vladimir said:
If Onkyo adds a DAC to its budget integrated then we become suspicious of craftsmanship, quality control, how comrpomised it is, should we go separates. But when Devialet does it and charges it up the ar$e then it's brilliant innovative technology, a step in the future and cutting the signal path, best practice, no clutter, eco. *biggrin*

It's the Amstrad mentality. If you get a whole system in a small box and it's cheap, how good can the turntable really be? Likely not very good. However a DAC is something different. Fact is, there's been DACs in integrateds ever since digital came out. It's just a daughter board inside the amp or outside in an aluminium profile box if you go separates. That is all, it's cheap to get it right. Which is why when you buy integrated you presume the engineer hasn't cheapened out by not allowing full 2Vrms output and asynchronous USB operation, but can we really know unless they state it in the specs? If too picky/suspicious of course you would go separate DAC and make sure you tick all the audiophile boxes so you sleep at night. Some ppl don't care and appreciate practicality. It's not that big of a deal IMO.

+1
 

Vladimir

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insider9 said:
Oh, and by the way I just picked up a Sony TAF370 for a £5 and it's sound incredible for the money :biggrin: easily as good as the aforementioned Onkyo.

Good stuff!
thumbs_up.png


Small tip: That Sony has STK power module, which means you should be careful not pushing 4 ohm loads hard and make sure amp has open space for cooling on top. Heat is what kills these and costs mucho dinero to replace.
 

insider9

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Vladimir said:
insider9 said:
Oh, and by the way I just picked up a Sony TAF370 for a £5 and it's sound incredible for the money :biggrin: easily as good as the aforementioned Onkyo.

Good stuff! 

Small tip: That Sony has STK power module, which means you should be careful not pushing 4 ohm loads hard and make sure amp has open space for cooling on top. Heat is what kills these and costs mucho dinero to replace. 
Thanks for the tip, Vladimir.

Ultimately it's going to run tweeters only in my diy active setup. But I'm going to have some fun with it first.
 
chebby said:
I get the feeling that a built-in phono stage, in an amplifier, would be viewed as a quality 'enhancement' whereas the built-in DAC is more likely to be seen as a quality 'compromise' such are the prevailing attitudes of 'traditionalists' towards any digital activity that has escaped the casing of a CD player!

(Of course if the built-in phono stage is found on the turntable itself then it reverts to being a 'bad thing' :) )

In my view you are spot-on with your observations. The phono stages fitted to budget turntables are exactly that and quality is far from brilliant.
 

Vladimir

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newlash09 said:
And especially mr.vladimir. will stick to the internal dac for now. Thanks :)

Shifting weight from one butt cheek to the other while sitting makes more sonic difference to me than swapping DACs. I may be wrong but comfortable.
 

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