help me understand

[Blacksabbath25]

right need some help in understanding sound in my room for when i get some better speakers as i do not want to wast money on getting the wrong kind of speakers . my room has a wooden floor but with concrete underneath the room length is 6 meters long and 3 meters wide i have 2 sofers in this room 1 on each side my currunt speakers are mounted on speaker brackets on the back of the 6 meter wall . the wall is stud work and i have a rug between the 2 sofers and 1 end of the room is a window and front door and the other end is wall and the kitchen door which is glass and the celing hight is about 2 and half meters high now i really need to do this right if i am going to spend £1500 or more on speakers its more then likely that they will be front ported speakers as i do not have the space to bring out from the 6 meter wall if they are floor standing speakers which i would like but not sure on this yet as i know on here i have said in the past they would have to be book shelf speakers but this was because of my little one but thinking about that i will keep the covers on the speakers and should be ok but if i did go the book shelf root then they would have to be mounted on speaker brackets which is a shame ...... the speakers that i would be intrested in are pmc 21 , 22s kef ls 50s , kef r300 or higher up the dali range or someting that will work that i have not thought about . if you can understand what i am going on about and can help i would be greatful

 

[p_m_brown]

I've just been through a similar search. I would discount the large Kefs as they really do need room behind them but do check out the PMCs.

After a great day spent demoing I settled on Audio Physics Classic 10 after hearing the following front/plinth firing/sealed speakers -

-Neat Sx1 and Sx2 (very close call between these and the AP, fantastic sound, the smaller of the two sounded huge!)

-Rega RX3 ( quite flat and boring)

-ATC SCM11 (superb detail, not enough scale for my liking)

-Audio Physics Tempo 25+ (Brilliant at lower volumes but muddled when loud and too expensive!)

Enjoy!

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

I reckon the twenty 21's will work on brackets,I can get mine pretty close to the wall with only a few cd's giving me some bass issues,but ideally 15-20 cm's is where they want to be.the 22's will give you problems on a bracket,they'll definitely need some space behind them.the mid bass driver is larger and the unit itself is a little large for wall mounting and too good to be used in such a manner,a good pair of stands is the order of the day for those beauties.the ls50's need some room,so I don't think there an option,if your amps got enough grunt,I'm sure atc scm11's could be an option with the closed back design on them.theoretically they should be able to get close to the wall without much of an issue.Floorstanders in my experience need a bit of space and will dominate the room of that size if they're firing across the shorter side ,also you sacrifice that extra bit of detail that you get with standmounts and that's the reason I went back to them.Also be careful of the wooden floor and avoid bright sounding speakers.the pmc twenty 21 are quite neutral in that respect although I'm not familiar with your amp and it's sound signature.hope I've helped slightly.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

yes thank you it keeps coming back to pmc 21s and maybe the way to go for me i just thought that with the floorstanding speakers they would go nice and low on the low bass side and being big cabnets and all but i do not want to make issues as this are meant to be last time i buy any speakers for a long time . how about monitor audio,s ? i used to have a set of gold 20s floorstanders they were natural if i remember but its sometime ago when i owned them but i liked them but then i was running arcam prosser and power amp but the marantz is a different kettal of fish but with the marantz pm8005 it a warm sounding amp with good detail but i reckon with the right speakers i maybe here more detail with better low end and top end and maybe a better sound stage a speaker that can handle the bass better a much tighter bass is what i am after . the pmc 20s seem to fit what i have in mind

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

I have to say,the top end on the 21's is superb.that sonolex tweeter is a cracker,cymbals sound so precise and clear,and busy,hard to disect treble pieces....maybe not perfect but more controlled than what I've ever heard.I'm not going to compare to other speakers,as I've not heard them all,anyway you've demoed a pair and already know what they're about.lol.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I have to say,the top end on the 21's is superb.that sonolex tweeter is a cracker,cymbals sound so precise and clear,and busy,hard to disect treble pieces....maybe not perfect but more controlled than what I've ever heard.I'm not going to compare to other speakers,as I've not heard them all,anyway you've demoed a pair and already know what they're about.lol.

yes thats right i just want to be sure that's all but at the time i never mentioned about my room to the sales man he was more intrested in selling and he never asked me about my room only what amp i was using +cd player . but yes thanks for that you should know you have some 21's but anyway i get a new demo done and maybe pay for some so i take them home and try them out to see if they work with my room and amp .

 

[Frank Harvey]

I've just been through a similar search. I would discount the large Kefs as they really do need room behind them but do check out the PMCs.

A few of my customers have reported back to me that they didn't need as much space behind them as they expected - one of them even thought he'd be bringing them back because he thought they'd have too much bass. I tell all purchasers about the two part bungs provided, and that they are best using the outer bung, but a few said they didn't even need those.

I myself used the R300s about 6-7" away from a solid wall without any major booming issues. And I'm about to use LS50s even closer than that. ALL speakers, regardless of their cabinet design or port position, will generally sound better away from a wall.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

if i got a sub would the sub give me a better low and high bass or would that make an issue with the sound still ? as a sub is something i just thought about before i go out and buy some pmc 20s or would this help the 20s too ?

 

[davedotco]

There is a lot written about placement of loudspeakers, but unless you have a dedicated listening room they are mostly of little help, in the real world you have to compromise.

Generally, and for a variety of reasons speakers are balanced (tonally) for free space, or close to it. Move them closer to a wall and a number of things happen.

Bass, which is effectively omnidirectional, is reflected from the back wall and adds to the direct bass at the listening position and makes the system sound bass heavy, that's it.

This effect is at it's worst in smallish solid brick or concrete homes like those in the uk but hardly noticeable in larger rooms using different construction methods. If you have the former room type, you really need to choose speakers with a less full bass balance and let the room bring up the bass level.

Many speakers will actually boom in these situations, manufacturers know this but believe that punters will buy speakers with more bass rather than less and they are mostly correct. Cheaper speakers will also react to the sound pressure in the room, ie they will be 'driven' by the room producing yet more bass. The results can be anything from mild added warmth to massive bass bloat, but it is all, in effect, distortion.

To sum up, the bigger and bassier the speaker the more room it needs and perversly the smaller the listening room the bigger this issue becomes. Some speakers control the bass much better than others, PMC are generally quite good in that respect though the hi-fi models are noticeably warmer in balance than their professional models.

Finally, a couple of more general observations.

Despite what you read on here, the position of the bass port, front or rear, makes no difference to the bass response of the speaker and no difference to room positioning. The only time it matters at all is when speakers are wall or shelf mounted so that there are obstructive surfaces within a few inches of the port. Speakers are rear ported to minimise baffle size and to reduce midband port noise at the listening position, nothing to do with bass response or positioning.

I am always wary about buying 'too much' speaker. There are exceptions but in general the better the speaker the more complex it is and the demands on the amplifier become more difficult. Personally I would not be comfortable with speakers costing several times the price of the amplifier, not as a long term solution anyway.

 

[Vladimir]

Yeah, what Dave said about the bass port. IME it doesn't matter if it is on the back, bottom, front or sealed design. A speaker will emit spherically a certain amount of sound pressure at low frequency and if you put it near a wall, the wall will work as a lense and reflect some of that energy back at the listener, effectively increasing the bass.

When people say sealed designs work better near walls than ported designs, they should mean because of the LF slope. Sealed designs will generally have less bass but will go deeper than ported designs and less bass means less energy to reflect, which makes it less of an issue for positioning near walls, regardless how deep they go in frequency.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Yeah, what Dave said about the bass port. IME it doesn't matter if it is on the back, bottom, front or sealed design. A speaker will emit spherically a certain amount of sound pressure at low frequency and if you put it near a wall, the wall will work as a lense and reflect some of that energy back at the listener, effectively increasing the bass.

When people say sealed designs work better near walls than ported designs, they should mean because of the LF slope. Sealed designs will generally have less bass but will go deeper than ported designs and less bass means less energy to reflect, which makes it less of an issue for positioning near walls, regardless how deep they go in frequency.

I will explain a bit better if I added a subwoofer to amp and speakers would this make things better or worse ? My speakers are mounted on speaker brackets on the longest part of the room and they are about 3 meters apart and nearly 2 meters high on the wall . I do understand that they really should be 2 meters apart and the tweeter should be ear high but that's going by the Dali 3s hand book . You see were I am coming from I want to change the Dalis 3s for something like the PMC 20s and they would be something I would keep but hold onto the marantz for now but think about changing that in the future So would it be wise to try a subwoofer first before I get the PMC speakers . Thanks

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

I don't think there's any point in getting a sub first.If your going to get the pmc's,don't you think you should hear them on their own first,before spending decent money on a sub you probably won't need,I doubt a budget sub will cut it with the 20's though,that's why there's a twenty sub but at close to 3k,you'd be as well with some 23's or even 24's could be had for the same money as the 21's and the 20 sub.The 21's can go surprisingly low for there size and given your musical tastes I don't think you'll find them wanting.

 

[Rethep]

In the 'hifiworld' it is 'not preferable' to use an eq. to help in room problems. Sometimes room acoustics can't be changed without big (unwanted) changes to the interior. A digital eq. (like the one in iTunes or any other media-player) can be very useful when used with subtlety! It is not 'forbidden' when used with common sense. A dedicated digital room eq. can be very useful, but is very expensive.

3 dB up or down, is no problem! But (i don't use it at the moment) then keep it in one setting, otherwise you keep changing all the time.

Good luck!

 

[Rethep]

Sorry, wrong thread!