golden rule??

[shooter]

Tarquinh, you can not be serious! Can you!

FBS has hit the nail on the head. There are plenty of systems out there that use superior electronics. I use Totem Mani II sig's, if you search the www. you will find these speakers are still being used to partner expensive electric's from LAMM, Conrad Johnson and the list goes on. Some of these electrics cost multiple of the Mani's. The LAMM for instance cost's over £25k. Should of these company's use speakers costing $50-$100k, no. Why, because the Totem's are an excellent speaker, with superb build quality. They are also notoriously difficult to drive and they will show any short coming's in the electrics. Oh and the cost, £4k.

 

[shooter]

chebby:
My own gear looks pug ugly and comes from a heritage of 39 years of older (even uglier) Naim equipment.

I'm in total agreement.... (winking smiley)

(I'd put it in if i new how)

 

[the record spot]

Square bracket [ followed by a semicolon ; and then a rounded bracket ) finished off with a closing square bracket ].

Or quote this post to see this

if that helps!

 

[chebby]

I have always found a change of speakers has the most profound effect on sound.

I did 'buy into' the source -> amp -> speakers heirarchy a long time ago but the Arcam Solo Mini + Rega R3s sort of disproved that a bit.

At time it was a £650 all-in-one and £500 speakers (would be £750 all-in-one and £698 speakers nowadays for a Solo-Mini and RS3s) and all the received wisdom said that the same money spent on - say - £900 seperates + MA BR2s, for example, would have sounded better. I tried that. It didn't.

I have also found the same with the Naimuniti where speakers costing £2k+ sound great on the end of the £2K amp/CD/DAC/FM/DAB/wireless all-in-one system.

I think a certain editor around these parts uses even more expensive speakers with the naimuniti with good results.

 

[Anonymous]

I dont think there is a definate answer here and none of you totally wrong.

My kit is really unbalanced at the moment. £400 cdp and amp into speakers which retail for over £2000. However, IMO the sound is stunning. Even more so when I use my Systemdek turntable (£60).

Id like to upgrade my amp at some point but its not an option at the moment. Ive heard the ATCs with a Lyngdorf integrated and I just didnt like the sound and it cost over four times that of my NAD. It was cold and clinical. So more money definately doesnt mean better.

If I had to live with this combo forever I'd be really happy.

 

[the record spot]

And that's what counts. Incidentally, your turntable was nearer the £250 mark in its day I think! Give it some credit!

 

[Anonymous]

shooter69:Tarquinh, you can not be serious! Can you!FBS has hit the nail on the head. There are plenty of systems out there that use superior electronics. I use Totem Mani II sig's, if you search the www. you will find these speakers are still being used to partner expensive electric's from LAMM, Conrad Johnson and the list goes on. Some of these electrics cost multiple of the Mani's. The LAMM for instance cost's over £25k. Should of these company's use speakers costing $50-$100k, no. Why, because the Totem's are an excellent speaker, with superb build quality. They are also notoriously difficult to drive and they will show any short coming's in the electrics. Oh and the cost, £4k.I like Totem speakers, but this doesn't disprove my point. Imagine the likes of Magico or better on the end of the systems you describe! If people want to put cheap speakers on the end of expensive electronics let them, but don't let them believe they're getting the best from their system, because they aren't. The only person they're hurting are themselves.

Naim and Linn have to take a lot of blame for the skewed view of what constitutes a hi-fi system that seems extant at the moment.

 

[shooter]

the record spot:Square bracket [ followed by a semicolon ; and then a rounded bracket ) finished off with a closing square bracket ].

Or quote this post to see this

if that helps!

Thank you.

 

[Anonymous]

It seems to be a mac/safari thing

 

[Anonymous]

the record spot:And that's what counts. Incidentally, your turntable was nearer the £250 mark in its day I think! Give it some credit!

True. It was an example of how atrocious Cash Generator's pricing is! Happy Days!

 

[chebby]

Is Tarquin the Duracell bunny?

Been posting all night.

 

[Anonymous]

chebby:

zekezebra:Look at something like Harbeth or ATC where much of the cost goes into the components within the speakers or B&O where much of the cost goes into the cosmetics.

You are joking right?

Have you read Alan Shaw on the subject of the cost of those hand-built cabinets?

And have you looked into the research, design, engineering excellence that goes into B&O gear?

I'll give you ATC though. Their finish is 'perfunctory' at best (if my friend's SCM11s are anything to go by) and their - domestic series - cabinets are built in the Far east to keep down costs.

The point I was trying to make here was not to decry Habeth cabinets but if the actual finish (not the materials) were of a higher standard and more options available this would add a premium to the price. I had considered Harbeths but when the other half saw them I got "they look like they are made from recycled packing cases".

 

[matthewpiano]

An interesting debate and one to which I doubt there can be any definitive conclusion.

I certainly agree that there is no point in very expensive speakers if you have an amplifier that can't control them properly but I often wonder whether this is more about good amp design rather than all-out cost or power. There are enough relatively budget 50wpc amplifiers that exhibit this kind of control to make this plausible, the Pioneer A400 and Audiolab 8000S being prime examples.

I think the question then is how far can you go with speakers to partner such amps? I am quite confident that I could go much higher than either the Roths or the Qs before I started getting the absolute best out of the A400's potential - probably quite comfortably up to about £1k. Having said that, I always felt the Q 1030i lacked a little finesse at both ends of the spectrum having only heard them on the end of NAD and Cambridge Audio amps. Trying them with the Pioneer A400 has showed me that, with the right amp to control them, they have plenty of finesse and are a mightily impressive speaker for their original price point, never mind the £130 or so the last few pairs are being sold for.

I also think that the source first thing is interesting. I certainly don't agree that all CD players sound the same, having heard quite dramatic differences between players, but I don't think you need to spend as much on any digital source (CD/SACD/DAC/AE/Squeezebox etc.) as you do on the speakers or the amp to drive them. If you bring analogue sources into the equation (which was where the 'garbage in garbage out' theory came from) then I think it is different and assigning a bigger proportion of the budget to the record player is pretty much essential. Whether that budget is best spent on the 'table itself, a more exotic arm, better power supply, or a better cartridge is another area totally up for debate.

Quite simply there are so many variables in all this, including the acceptance that there are some products which have punched well above their price point over the years, that you can only take it on a case-by-case basis. Working out your salvation by listening with your own ears, your own music and (preferably) in your own environment is the only way.

 

[chebby]

zekezebra:The point I was trying to make here was not to decry Habeth cabinets but if the actual finish (not the materials) were of a higher standard and more options available this would add a premium to the price. I had considered Harbeths but when the other half saw them I got "they look like they are made from recycled packing cases".

The Harbeth cabinets are thin wall designs, veneered both sides, bitumen damped, hand-made, and have back and front panels that are deliberately designed to be screwed on (according to the old BBC recipe) to give cabinet vibrations places to 'break up' quickly unlike modern MDF machine tongue/groove/glued cabinets that behave like one continous solid piece of material.

I am sure Mr James (of AVI) would vehemently disagree - but I wonder if just a little of the success of the ADM9.1s sound is down to the large screwed in amp 'plates' at the rear of the cabinets that might serve to break up cabinet vibration in a similar way to the Harbeth's screwed in front and back panels.

 

[Anonymous]

chebby:
Is Tarquin the Duracell bunny?

Been posting all night. 1 hour time difference. You're right re Duracell bunny, though, this is the sprint to the finish.

 

[Anonymous]

tonky:

Hi johnnyjazz,

I would certainly like to know the £300 cd player in that expensive system - thanks

Tonky

Sorry tonky, it was about 10 years ago and i think, but not sure, it was a marantz, the point being that the tact digital amp made anything that was half good built sound fantastic.

 

[stpierre76]

Whoaaaaaaaa so much to take .Seems that 3/4 of replies tend to indicate that a system is as good as your weakest lonk(component) which makes sense I guess.See I got a primare i30 running thru dacmagic and using focal 706 speakers.very happy but was wondering what kind of money I ve have to spend to see a real improvemnt.Thanks everybody anyway for all the replies.very interesting and will audition a few speakers with my amp..