golden rule??

[stpierre76]

Is there a golden rule that applies to amp and speakers?I mean that if you buy a 1500pds amp one should at least spend the same on speaker or may be higher(or any less??).

 

[simonlewis]

Twice as much on speakers imo.

 

[JoelSim]

Lots of golden rules, it depends on who you speak to. My preference is to spend roughly the same amount on source, amp and speakers. If I bought a great source and amp, I couldn't settle for cheaper speakers, likewise I couldn't play a Sony PS3 through a great amp and speakers and be satisfied.

 

[the record spot]

Depends; there are no hard and fast rules, but I tend to go with spending more on the amp (if it's a digital source) and more on the source (if it's a vinyl system). There are really so many combinations out there, it's near impossible to be so rigid in allocating budgets.

Right now, I've got a pair of £500 speakers from 1995 with a £600 CDP from 2008. There's a £1300 amp sitting in between the pair of them. Not as easy a call to make anymore - a pair of Q Acoustics 1050i floorstanders will go well with (by all accounts) a Leema Pulse amp, the same one I'm using currently. While once upon a time, a Pioneer A400 amp will have done a decent job with a pair of Mission 753s. I wouldn't say that's the best you could hope for with the 753 (if ever four drivers needed a bit extra oomph, them's the ones!), but the amp punched above its weight, no question.

Best advice I could come up with is to do some background reading, a bit of research, understand the kind of sound you like, get the budget worked out and stick to it, then take it from there...easy peasy!

 

[smuggs]

i would say that the amp and cd example were £600 each then speakers should be £400 that way you driving the speakers to the full. I have heard so much change from my br5's now a arcam alpha 9 is on them rather than 3 other cheaper amps.

Plus i have heard some MA RS8'S through 2 simliar priced units arcam i think it was the fmj range about £1700 for amp and cd player and then through a £1800 amp and a £1200 player an again you be fooled into thinking they had changed the speakers.

just imo

 

[Anonymous]

Difficult one to narrow down, don,t think there is a hard and fast rule, some years ago i heard a £300 cd player going through a £6000 Tact Millenium digital amp into £1500 speakers and it sounded superb, so that blows the rule of thirds out of the window. My cd player retailed for £1200, pre-amp and amp retailed for £900 each, going through £2000 speakers so then again that doesn,t make any sense, i,ve also heard b&w 804 speakers sounding pathetic on the end of an £8000 amp. I would think concentrate on source first because if thats not right then it does not matter what you put on the end of it, it won,t sound good.

 

[the record spot]

Just out of interest, how would the value of the equipment determine if you are getting the most out of the speaker? What if your £400 speaker was low sensitivity and partnered with an amp that handed out 10wpc (see the Puresound A10 - £599)? Not as straightforward I think. Wish it was though!

 

[matthewpiano]

To me it all comes down to that black art of synergy which over-rides everything else. There really aren't any hard and fast rules and the only way to work out the best way forward is to listen and judge with your own ears.

 

[smuggs]

i can see where you going but take say the new MA RX2'S they i have heard can sound a touch boomy if the amp is a good solid one with guts and a controlled bottom end so i guess many £200 amps wont do do that. So i would never get a set of speakers that were the strong link. I would be wanting to know that i am getting as close as the best my speakers can offer

it all makes sense in my head lol

 

[Anonymous]

the record spot:Just out of interest, how would the value of the equipment determine if you are getting the most out of the speaker? What if your £400 speaker was low sensitivity and partnered with an amp that handed out 10wpc (see the Puresound A10 - £599)? Not as straightforward I think. Wish it was though! Or if your amp was a 16 watt Audionote Ongaku which i think cost about £70,000 or nearas dam to it, could be wrong.

 

[smuggs]

i would say that 7out10 £500 amps will have less power and controll than a £1000 amp, you will find a few that break the trend. But it really is a world that you get what you pay for it is quailty as well to run a speaker not just power. Some 22watt 1970's amps sound louder than the CA 640a hows that are they 1970's watts lol

 

[tonky]

Hi johnnyjazz,

I would certainly like to know the £300 cd player in that expensive system - thanks

Tonky

 

[Anonymous]

Twice as much on the speakers, easily.

There seems to be a thread running through this forum recently which says you should spend more on the electrics, but it isn't so. Budget speakers may sound slightly better with an expensive amp but they'll still sound like budget speakers nonetheless.

Speakers are what any HiFi system is about. To stint on them is foolish.

 

[fatboyslimfast]

See, I have to disagree here. I'm flitting between two very "budget" speakers at the moment, some vintage Mission Model 70MK2s with a Mission 73PI passive sub and a pair of Mordaunt-Short MS20i Pearls.

Both turn up on eBay for less than £50. Both have seen off floorstanders upwards of £500.

However, both lack the outright oomph of £500 floorstanders, but to my ears are more real-sounding and detailed.

These are running from either a £400 turntable (Technics SL1210), or a Mac Mini (again, around £400) - both are available 2nd hand for £200.

I'm running them through £2.5k of Naim Pre/Power amps (bought 2nd hand for about £1k).

I'm guessing you can see where I think the majority of the money should go...in my situation.

The comments about synergy are very important, but should also include the listening room. The Missions sound very bass-light in my lounge (which has deep carpets, big sofas and heavy curtains) but sound wonderful in my conservatory - which is where my listening now occurs.

 

[Anonymous]

If you put some decent speakers on your system - say about £3000 worth - I think you'd be absolutely stunned.

At the moment you have a Ferrari engine in a Reliant Robin!

 

[fatboyslimfast]

...but then I'd have a £6k system instead of a £3k... (or £3.5k instead of £2k if we are talking 2nd hand values).

I've done a lot of "rationalisation" of my kit recently due to cash pressures - and rationalised based on what I was happy to live with rather than what was - in absolute terms - best.

I compared my LP12 with the SL1210. The LP12 went and freed up £750. (LP12 was best in absolute terms)
I compared my RS6s with the M70/mk2s. The RS6s went and freed up £350 (M70/MK2s were best. I was shocked there.)
I compared my Beresford with the output of the Mac Mini. The Beresford went and freed up £100. (Beresford had the edge, but not by much)
I compared the Naim amps with my beloved RA820, and a RA04. The Naims stayed...and were miles ahead. No contest.

I think my speakers are the exception, in that they sound better than they should for the price , but the fact I have two pairs which do this prove they are out there. Sources (especially digital) have come on to the point where budget ones are really quite good these days. However with amps, you still seem to get what you pay for.

 

[Anonymous]

For me there is no hard and fast answer to this. The price of a speaker can be "pushed up" by the quality of the finish. Look at something like Harbeth or ATC where much of the cost goes into the components within the speakers or B&O where much of the cost goes into the cosmetics.

I have Marantz KI Pearl CDP and Amp running Esoteric MG-20 speakers. Altough the speakers cost twice the price of either the CDP or Amp a lot of cost has gone into both the components and the high quality finish. It is possible the the speakers could have cost far less with a lower standard of finish.

 

[Anonymous]

But, on the other hand, if you had, for example, a macmini going into a v-dac/NADC320/Sonus Faber Minima you'd have something truly exceptional

.

That's my point. At the moment you're never going to know how good your system is because it's hamstrung by the speakers. It may sound good, but I'd argue strongly it would sound just as good with lesser amps. That's the problem with going the expensive amp/source/cheap speaker route. Yes, your system may sound good, but hang on some speakers worth double the price of the amp/source and you'll be gobsmacked.

I still can't understand why people economise on the speakers. Is it too hard to work out that cheap speakers=cheap system expensive speakers=great system?

Byt the way, my speakers only cost £300, so technically my system is unbalanced. However, even with the cheap amp it still sounds wonderful

 

[fatboyslimfast]

And there we have come full circle - your system would sound far better with £3k of amps, and mine would sound far better with £3k of speakers. But both options involve spending that £3k - not rearranging the total cash for our systems.

I think what we are discovering here is that there isn't a hard and fast rule - it's all about synergy (matching) and personal preference...

 

[shooter]

fatboyslimfast:I think what we are discovering here is that there isn't a hard and fast rule - it's all about synergy (matching) and personal preference...

Exactamundo!

 

[chebby]

zekezebra:Look at something like Harbeth or ATC where much of the cost goes into the components within the speakers or B&O where much of the cost goes into the cosmetics.

You are joking right?

Have you read Alan Shaw on the subject of the cost of those hand-built cabinets?

And have you looked into the research, design, engineering excellence that goes into B&O gear?

I'll give you ATC though. Their finish is 'perfunctory' at best (if my friend's SCM11s are anything to go by) and their - domestic series - cabinets are built in the Far east to keep down costs.

 

[shooter]

chebby:
I'll give you ATC though. Their finish is 'perfunctory' at best (if my friend's SCM11s are anything to go by) and their - domestic series - cabinets are built in the Far east to keep down costs.

I have no first hand experience of ATC. I would be pretty peeved if i'd spent pound notes on an item to find it not up to scratch, especially when they charge a premium for some of their speakers.

 

[Anonymous]

I'd love to agree with you FBS, but it isn't so.

I have been trying them recently with a range of amps going up to the £2500 mark. Certainly, you can hear the difference but the gap between the Rotel at £900 and the Unison Research at £1800 isn't so great that you couldn't live without the latter. I'd have kept the NAD, actually, but it is beginning to run out of puff.

All of which leads me to my original conclusion that the speakers define the system, so you should spend more on them. After all, a Jaguar with a 4 litre will go faster than one with a 3 litre, but will still handle like a Jaguar. The Reliant with the Ferrari motor may go faster but it will always handle like a Reliant.

 

[chebby]

shooter69:I have no first hand experience of ATC. I would be pretty peeved if i'd spent pound notes on an item to find it not up to scratch, especially when they charge a premium for some of their speakers.

ATC SCM11's are pretty cheap for what they do and considering the hand made (in UK) nature of everything else apart from the cabinet.

The SCM11 cabinets are ok (solid etc) but they are not beautiful. Pride in ownership would have to be for the sound and build not the looks or for a fine finish. (Some speakers costing a third of the price look way smarter.)

ATC's heritage is from studios where I suppose no-one really cares what stuff looks like.

Not having a pop at them in particular. My own gear looks pug ugly and comes from a heritage of 39 years of older (even uglier) Naim equipment.

 

[the record spot]

Actually, having had some first hand experience in using higher quality speakers and lesser or greater quality amps, I'll pitch in with my pennyworth!

The 752s are, or were, a £500 design in the mid-90s. I think we'd be looking at around £800-£1000 to better them now. I run them mainly with a budget Sansui AU-217. It does the job fine. the speakers sound great, full of detail and so on. No real issues. Put on a better amp and the difference is like night and day; more grip, better dynamic range, more control over the drivers, etc, etc, etc.

Spend £1000 on a pair of speakers and £300 on an amp by all means, but don't expect that to be the last word in what your speakers can do. My take is it's a fallacy to believe that one item holds greater sway than the others in the chain.

I've changed all three components in the last couple of years, the greatest impact has probably been the step up to a higher quality amp, but a better CDP gave me more detail and the speakers delivered a wider soundstage.

It's getting the marriage of components right and the resulting sound that comes out, not the decision at the outset to allocate the available budget in preset portions to a greater or lesser degree to one particular element in said chain. Be prepared to change your views and don't hold on to "holy grails"!