Forgiving Systems

[ROB2009]

Hi....Just wondering if there are any amplifiers / speaker combinations that are known to be more forgiving with lesser recordings, or even certain music genres?

My system (Hegel H360 / ATC SCM7s) is great with jazz, blues, acoustic and close mic recordings, but often, if if put some rock / pop type music on, then it just doesn’t sound good. I’ve tried the ATC 11s but they didn’t suit my room.

Any thoughts would be appreciated

 

[Electro]

Hi....Just wondering if there are any amplifiers / speaker combinations that are known to be more forgiving with lesser recordings, or even certain music genres?

My system (Hegel H360 / ATC SCM7s) is great with jazz, blues, acoustic and close mic recordings, but often, if if put some rock / pop type music on, then it just doesn’t sound good. I’ve tried the ATC 11s but they didn’t suit my room.

Any thoughts would be appreciated

When you say rock/ pop music do you mean the mainstream highly compressed manufactured stuff or bands with some musical talent ?

 

[ROB2009]

I guess the question of musical talent is pretty subjective... probably rock rather than pop, but the likes of Springsteen, Rolling Stones, Walk The Moon, Rush, etc. Maybe I expect too much, it’s just that some music sounds fantastic and some very mediocre.

 

[insider9]

Describe what doesn't sound good. Is it dynamic compression? What is it in particular are you not happy with? Are you simply expecting something that isn't there?

Could you still play your favourite Rock recordings and enjoy them? Can you still enjoy poorly recorded material? What if you played Punk?

As an example, I recently listened to Bad Brains "I Against I." Not the best sound quality and even though played via Tidal Hifi it was AAC 16/22.05 (not FLAC 16/44.1). I still enjoyed it. Maybe it's a matter of managing expectations.

 

[ROB2009]

You’ve probably hit the nail on the head, managing expectations.. (I stream everything through Tidal Hifi)

I thinks it’s just overall SQ, I find the perceived sound quality of some recordings is dictating what I listen too, it’s like I can’t get out of audition mode and actually enjoy the music, which after all is the whole point of it, surely!

As for Punk....err no thanks*yahoo* ...appreciate your assistance with my OCD ☺️

 

[ROB2009]

Thanks for your input Cno...plenty to digest

As my only source is Tidal Hifi, I don’t have any stored music or CDs, does the choice of streamer become less important in the chain?

 

[gasolin]

I remember one changing his big B&W to some tannoys mabye D500 or bigger, i remember he gained som musicallity where he stopped listening to the fault of the music(analytic sound) and started to listen to the music,enjoying it, but he missed the better bass from the B&W

Either try some different speakers, mabye warmer sound, i remember people say the amp has a neutral sound or a more warmer sounding amp like a tube amp or if you can live with less power, something like a Marantz PM-14S1 Special Edition

 

[CnoEvil]

I too like forgiving systems...and is what I usually recommend, unless people ask for components on the more neutral/forward/analytical side.

For a Digital Source, i like Linn...or you could look at an Electro CDP, or a CDP with a Valve in it.

On the Amp front, I favour brands like Accuphase, Luxman, Pathos, Sugden. Arcam, Elelctrcompaniet, Mc Intosh, Mastersound, Ear Yoshino, Unison Research, Jadis, Icon Audio, Musical Fidelity (Class A or Nu Vista) and Audio Vote.

For Speakers, it can depend on the Amp you chose...but generally Harbeth, Spendor, Kef R Series, ProAc (with Valves or Class A), Opera and Audio Note.

You can get great results, as I have done, by pairing say a Class A amp, with neutral Speakers...or you can chose a Speaker like Harbeth or Spendor Classic, which will sound forgiving, no matter what amp you use (provided it has enough oomph).

There are known matches, like Sugden / ProAc; or LFD / Harbeth.

For example, to get a more forgiving sound, you could replace your ATCs with Harbeth; or you could replace the Hegel with Pathos/MF Nu Vista or some Icon Audio Valve Monos.

This all requires a lot of listening, to make sure you don't waste money.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I would say that the hagel H360 is more then a capable amplifier from what I’ve heard from insiders Hegel amplifier on my speakers but I’ve not heard ATC speakers so going by what I’ve read the ATCs are very natural and true but do not sound that great with compressed music which I would of thought that’s a lot of modern music of today .

So weather some people on here that own ATCs would agree or not but I would say change the speakers is my feelings .

 

[CnoEvil]

Thanks for your input Cno...plenty to digest

As my only source is Tidal Hifi, I don’t have any stored music or CDs, does the choice of streamer become less important in the chain?

IMO No, the Streamer doesn't become less important....but how much, depends on the rest of your system.

With your current system, the Source is vital.....but if for example you went for some Harbeth 30.2s, then much less so, as long as it's of decent quality.

Try and get a listen to a Sugden IA-4 driving some ProAcs. or see if you can get some Harbeths on the end of your Hegel....that should tell you what you want to know. All IMO.

 

[rainsoothe]

I too like forgiving systems...and is what I usually recommend, unless people ask for components on the more neutral/forward/analytical side.

For a Digital Source, i like Linn...or you could look at an Electro CDP, or a CDP with a Valve in it.

On the Amp front, I favour brands like Accuphase, Luxman, Pathos, Sugden. Arcam, Elelctrcompaniet, Mc Intosh, Mastersound, Ear Yoshino, Unison Research, Jadis, Icon Audio, Musical Fidelity (Class A or Nu Vista) and Audio Vote.

For Speakers, it can depend on the Amp you chose...but generally Harbeth, Spendor, Kef R Series, ProAc (with Valves or Class A), Opera and Audio Note.

You can get great results, as I have done, by pairing say a Class A amp, with neutral Speakers...or you can chose a Speaker like Harbeth or Spendor Classic, which will sound forgiving, no matter what amp you use (provided it has enough oomph).

There are known matches, like Sugden / ProAc; or LFD / Harbeth.

For example, to get a more forgiving sound, you could replace your ATCs with Harbeth; or you could replace the Hegel with Pathos/MF Nu Vista or some Icon Audio Valve Monos.

This all requires a lot of listening, to make sure you don't waste money.

That's a very good list. Personally, I'd take the speaker approach, as ATC are known to be pretty unforgiving with bad recordings. I love Spendor and Harbeth are pretty good too. I also highly recommend Tellurium Q Black 2 speaker cable. Goodluck!

 

[nopiano]

In a general sense I’d agree with hearing some Harbeths, and they use Hegel to demo their speakers so it’s obviously a good match. But I hesitate when you mention not liking the fairly small SCM11 ATCs, because larger speakers in my experience are often easier to make richer, with more cabinet to warm the sound, and obviously greater cabinet volume to extend the bass. But then you’ve got a sub!

So, I’m not sure what to suggest other than taking a few months to hear as many different designs as you can. And meantime, try to borrow a Linn DS streamer to see if that helps.

PS. The ridiculously good value QA speakers always sound a shade rich to me. Though it seems a backward step I wouldn’t rule them out.

 

[davidf]

Why do they use Hegel if all amps sound the same?

 

[Andrewjvt]

Why do you want a divorce?
Have I not been loyal and honest with you?

Yes you have and that's the problem....
I'd prefer someone that cheats and lies.

 

[plastic penguin]

IME with modern methods of recordings, the quality will differ regardless of systems. And there are some recordings which are just naturally dreadful, but sadly the better the system the more foibles in the recording it'll pick up.

IME (again) the only way to gloss over s###e is to own a smooth, budget set-up, such as Nad with old Dynaudio Audience range of speakers.

 

[gasolin]

IME with modern methods of recordings, the quality will differ regardless of systems. And there are some recordings which are just naturally dreadful, but sadly the better the system the more foibles in the recording it'll pick up.

IME (again) the only way to gloss over s###e is to own a smooth, budget set-up, such as Nad with old Dynaudio Audience range of speakers.

Latest with metallica will always sound horrible

 

[Electro]

I put together a little playlist of the artists you mentioned and a couple more and had a listen to it last night.

Some of them were less that perfect but all sounded very good in their own way, all having a very different charachter and sound balance.

https://open.spotify.com/user/electrohead58/playlist/6W5KP0K3Cxx3xcs72hGgD0?si=rWNnUClvQ52XggG_weN6Cg

Rush and Walk the Moon were particularly good .

Have a look at the tracks and see if that is the type of music you were talking about .

 

[ROB2009]

Thanks for doing that Electro...

A pretty good track selection, I don’t disagree with you, some better than others which you would expect. Maybe I had listened to tracks that weren’t such great quality and that gave me an unfavourable overall impression leading to my original post.

I have also been experimenting with different sub crossover settings and volumes, I’ve currently got the crossover a fair bit higher than the manufacturers recommended setting which has improved things a lot, I’ll have to see how that pans out with other music but it’s a step forward.

 

[emcc_3]

I'll second the r series as being forgiving, especially with rock music. I believe Hegel use the r series for reference when designing their amps and therefore they are a known match.

They are great all rounders, though personally I have found jazz, electronic and orchestral music to be were they really shine.

Though looking at the reviews I would have thought your setup with the sub and Hegel would have made a great pairing.

Unfortunately when you get a decent system it can show up warts in the recording process. For example the Springsteen 70s stuff was recorded with the deliberate intention of sounding great on car radios/mass turntables as that was what he grew up with when he got into music and wanted to preserve the same for those listening to his work. For me I find the rawness appealing as rock is supposed to be a bit rough and ready.

Exile on main street was recorded in a French basement deliberately to give the feel of the roots music that influenced Keith. I think that recording, often maligned by purests for sound quality, is great for that very reason as it was meant to sound like a roots album.

Well recorded/audiophile music can sound great when the music is also great i.e. Steely Dan. But there is a lot of it which is just well dressed dross. Give me a rough and ready punk tune over that any day.

 

[Leeps]

Hi....Just wondering if there are any amplifiers / speaker combinations that are known to be more forgiving with lesser recordings, or even certain music genres?

My system (Hegel H360 / ATC SCM7s) is great with jazz, blues, acoustic and close mic recordings, but often, if if put some rock / pop type music on, then it just doesn’t sound good. I’ve tried the ATC 11s but they didn’t suit my room.

Any thoughts would be appreciated

Just be careful that in the pursuit of a warmer system, that you don't swing too far the other way. I made a similar move some years back and although I found the system initially inviting (particularly for any music that was a little edgy like electric guitar-based music or poorer recordings), I quickly missed the dynamism, snap, agility and sheer excitement that I had before. It's quite a short distance from raucous to exciting to balanced to flat and boring.

I'm not saying don't make any changes at all, but if you've had your system for some time, a major leap in tonal balance would take some getting used to and you may find you're playing all the music you didn't play before beacuse it now sounds acceptable, but you play NONE of the music you DID play before because it's suddenly lost its soul. So if you do make adjustments you may want to do so in fairly small increments.

 

[insider9]

Easiest way test is to visit other people and listen to their systems. Maybe go for short demo to your local dealer.

It could be you'd benefit from listening to something completely different. Doesn't have to be better/worse just different. It would either make you appreciate your system more or show potential of where to go next.

 

[drummerman]

I find my low tier Hegel to be a very 'forgiving' amplifier.

I came from Cyrus and found that never grating either but the Schmegel is warmer and more ... erm ... 'organic'.

I also find that when I shout at the Hegel it never retaliates with verbal or physical abuse.

As we are talking Hegel, may I also take this opportunity and thank Rick of Musicraft for another refund on the Hegel I bought from him. - He was under no obligation to do so ie. to further reduce the already low amount I paid but he did so uninitiated. - A gentleman. Thank you.

If anyone needs kind and helpful advise, give him a shout. Totally recommended.

 

[insider9]

I also received one on mine. Making it even a bigger bargain. Thank you, Rick!

 

[MUSICRAFT]

As we are talking Hegel, may I also take this opportunity and thank Rick of Musicraft for another refund on the Hegel I bought from him. - He was under no obligation to do so ie. to further reduce the already low amount I paid but he did so uninitiated. - A gentleman. Thank you.

If anyone needs kind and helpful advise, give him a shout. Totally recommended.

Hi drummerman

You’re welcome and thanks.

Yes, as stated on our special offers section a credit back on Hegel Music Systems for the H90 was on the cards in relation to our price of £362. You got an absolute bargain and then some with the H90 at 24% of its UK RRP *smile*

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft