External Sound Card

[admin_exported]

Hi,

System: VPI HW-19 Junior (RB300 arm, Goldring 1042 cartridge); Naim NAIT XS; Ruark Sabre IIIs

Query: I am looking at recording my 1200 or so vinyl albums onto a computer and so want a decent sound card. I originally thought I wanted to spend around £500 on a card (something like a Lynx L22), but ideally want something external, However, I am now thinking of buying a DACMagic and spending £300 or so on a sound card. Can anyone recommend a good external sound card for recording stereo (I'm not interested in gaming or anything else as far as sound is concerned) for about £300, or would a £500 external card be better for recording/playback than the DACMagic option (again, can you recommend a specific)?

I had an internal soundblaster at one time and found that Audacity would never clip with this card however high I set the recording level, making it impossible to set an accurate level, so I'm anxious to avoid a similar situation again. Ideally, I'd like a card that adjusts the recording level in the analogue domain, rather than digital as I see this as "purer", but of course, this thinking may be nonsense.

Thanks, Martin

 

[idc]

Hi Martin. Firstlt, I know nothing of recording vinyl to PC, but your question was interesting and so I googled and came up with loads of advice and programmes and hardware for the job......<<< clicky >>>.

It seems to me that what you want to concentrate on is making shure the computer files that you create are lossless and so contain as much information as possible. So the Microsoft tutorial and use of Windows Media Player and its lossless format was interesting and free... <<< clicky >>>.

A DACmagic will only do playback as it is a digital to analoge not an analogue to digital converter.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi idc,

Thanks for the response, but what I really want to know is would I get better results with

a) £300 External Sound Card (for recording) + DACMagic (for playback) or

b) £500 External Sound Card (for both recording and playback)?

And which £300/£500 sound cards to consider buying.

I'd certainly be recording losslessly (although some of us vinyl fans would argue that ANY digital format is, by definition, lossy, but that's an argument for another topic

). I've settled on the idea of an external card because I feel that removing the card from the noisy environment of the PC case would have to improve sound quality - are there external cards which rely on their own power supply rather than drawing power from the USB port (or wherever connected)?

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry, also no experience at all here, but here are some thoughts and calculations nevertheless. The time needed for realtime recording is at least 30 weeks x 40 hours per week for 1200 records, plus time to label your tracks if needed, fix problems if tracks are not generated right (I assume the recording program will look for silences, but will make mistakes). Hope your marriage/relationship is stable. So lossless or not is not a question, of course you want to do this only once. In fact you may even consider to do this at 96k/24bits. Not that you need this dynamic range (SNR of records is low), but it gives you some leverage to prevent clipping. Although I'd assume that whenever digital clipping is imminent the recording program adjusts all previous samples to a lower gain and used that for the remainder of the track too?

Of course, this would require approx. 3x as much hd space as cd quality 44.1k/16b. Assuming 50 percent reduction due to lossless compression (although 96/24 might be more compressable than 44.1k/16b), this would be close to 1Gb per record (somewhat less since records are less than an hour). Anyway, 1200 lps would fit on a 1.5Tb HD no problem. You need to double the amount if you intend to also do some processing and keep two copies. Bottomline: I would concentrate on a good ADC (internal or external) first, plus some decent software that will save you hours and weeks. What hardware - no idea. Some of the specialized pc cards (emu, maudio) seem to be very cheap though, I'd look into some of the reviews and give it a try.

 

[Anonymous]

I hadn't really thought of it as a full-time job for (at least) 30 weeks, but that does kinda put it in perspective.

I've done a few already, but want (once I have sufficient quality hardware) to go back and start again. The tools that I've been using are Audacity to make the initial recording (one side of vinyl per .wav file). I tend to use CD Wave to break the initial recording into tracks because I wouldn't trust an auto tool to get it right.

Funny term lossless, you'd think it would mean something quite precice, but I was thinking that 44.1k/16b is good enough for CD, so that is what i'm intending to settle for. Currently, I'm saving the results from CD Wave as 320k mp3s, but the recordings I have already made have always been seen as a temporary solution. The CDs that I've ripped are all Lossless WMA, but I'll probably have to re-think this now that I've been reading about bit-perfect on this forum. That's no biggie for me as I should be able to script, or write a small VB app to convert to another lossless format rather than start the CD rips again.

 

[idc]

My inclination would be soundcard and DAC as each is its own specialist, as opposed to just soundcard. But that is an 'audiophile' as opposed to a 'comouterphile' answer. The DACmagic is well regarded as is the V-DAC, Beresford and Firestone Fubar.

The best you can do is import to lossless and what you have with lossless WMA is as good as it gets. I cannot hear any difference between lossless formats, though others say they can. Try yourself before you start changing from one to another.

There is bit perfect as in you have successfully imported the data error free. Then there is bit perfect as in the PC does not mess with the file by re-sampling it before it is transmitted to your DAC. The two mean different things.

 

[The_Lhc]

MartinRamone:I've done a few already, but want (once I have sufficient quality hardware) to go back and start again. The tools that I've been using are Audacity to make the initial recording (one side of vinyl per .wav file). I tend to use CD Wave to break the initial recording into tracks because I wouldn't trust an auto tool to get it right.

How are you getting the output from the TT to the PC now? I bought a relatively cheap (compared to what you're thinking of spending) Project Phono USB stage, which is, oddly enough, a phono stage that also has a USB connection, this goes to the PC and bypasses your internal sound card. I only paid about 70 quid but I'm reasonably certain there are more expensive options if you wish to go that route. It's 16-bit output with sampling rates of 42, 44.1 or 48kHz.

Funny term lossless, you'd think it would mean something quite precice,

It does. (where is Harry Hill when you need him?)

but I was thinking that 44.1k/16b is good enough for CD, so that is what i'm intending to settle for. Currently, I'm saving the results from CD Wave as 320k mp3s, but the recordings I have already made have always been seen as a temporary solution.

Well that's not lossless as I'm sure you're aware.

The CDs that I've ripped are all Lossless WMA, but I'll probably have to re-think this now that I've been reading about bit-perfect on this forum. That's no biggie for me as I should be able to script, or write a small VB app to convert to another lossless format rather than start the CD rips again.

I'm not sure you'll get bit-perfect doing it that way, if the original WMA isn't bit-perfect, unless there's a conversion tool that will check the resulting output. I couldn't tell you, I've never needed to do that.

 

[Anonymous]

If I was you I wouldnt spend that sort of money on a soundcard. You can get the Alesis IO2 for about a hundred quid and is absolutely brilliant. I use it for recording guitar, syth and even drums before and have no problems with sound quality. I even use it instead of a DAC and it isnt far off my Arcam Alpha 7SE. Im not familiar with your recording software but I can recommend Sony Sound Forge as an audio editor. It doent get much better than that for editing.

 

[Anonymous]

Meant to say you get a copy of Cubase lite with the Alesis aswell.

 

[Anonymous]

the_lhc:How are you getting the output from the TT to the PC now? I bought a relatively cheap (compared to what you're thinking of spending) Project Phono USB stage, which is, oddly enough, a phono stage that also has a USB connection, this goes to the PC and bypasses your internal sound card. I only paid about 70 quid but I'm reasonably certain there are more expensive options if you wish to go that route. It's 16-bit output with sampling rates of 42, 44.1 or 48kHz.

Currently, I'm taking the output from a tape loop on the Amp and using that to feed the motherboard's on-board sound chip. My phono stage is Naim Stageline, bought over Christmas along with the Naim Nait XS integrated. I had to wait for the phono stage to be ordered, so the shop lent me one of the Project phono stages in the meantime. It was a neat idea, but unfortunately, the one I borrowed appeared to be faulty. It had a knob on the front to allow the setting of a recording level (it would seem that not all of the Project Phono USB Stages feature this), but for two of the three recordings that I attempted with it, once I was happy with the recording level, after about 10-15 minutes, the signal jumped back to maximum output, so I very quickly went back to recording via the tape-loop.

MartinRamone:Funny term lossless, you'd think it would mean something quite precice,

the_lhc:It does.

Fair comment, of course it does. However, I wasn't the first person in this thread to apply the term to recordings made from analogue sources. In these cases its more about how high a sample-rate/word-length needs to be before it can be thought of as equivilent to lossless. I realise that if my vinyl, turntable, tonearm, cartridge, phono-stage, intergrated amplifier, soundcard and all of the wiring in between were "perfect" then I could get recordings very near CD "quality", but in the real world this is not going to happen. The best that I can hope to think of my 44.1k/16b recordings of is as CD "standard", but this is far preferable to the cost of replacing all of my vinyl with CDs (assuming that this is even possible for some recordings).

the_lhc:I'm not sure you'll get bit-perfect (converting between lossless formats), if the original WMA isn't bit-perfect,

I can't guarantee that my CD rips are bit perfect, or would have been even I'd stuck to .WAVs, but it seems to me that a CD rip is just as likely to read the most-significant-bit (msb) wrongly as the lsb, so if my rips consistently sound OK, then there is a good chance that they are bit perfect (no?).

When compressing to a lossless format that ends up using less space than a .WAV, one is relying on the encoding software to do the job properly, so I suppose the only way of knowing this would be to re-create a .WAV from the compressed version and seeing if it is identical to the original. If this can be proved with Lossless WMA, and proved with FLAC or any other lossless format then it should be OK to assume that converting between lossless formats retains a bit perfect copy.

idc:My inclination would be soundcard and DAC as each is its own specialist, as opposed to just soundcard. But that is an 'audiophile' as opposed to a 'comouterphile' answer

bobbyg81:You can get the Alesis IO2 for about a hundred quid and is absolutely brilliant.

Thanks for the recommendations guys. I'll probably go for a dedicated DAC and consider the Alesis for recording.

 

[Anonymous]

Also consider the Cakewalk UA-1G (by Roland/Edirol) -- this is 24bit/96kHz, whilst the Alesis is 24/48 I believe. What their actual resoltions are after taking s/n, etc into account is, I don't know. The Cakewalk, like the Alesis comes with some software, in this case, Sonar LE.

neon k

Edit: Also E-MU 0202 USB - 24/192 and M-Audio Transit 24/96 (check) -- are in the same $100 / #100 price range.

 

[Anonymous]

 

[Anonymous]

 

[Anonymous]

Hi, Sorry about the blank messages, I've had to disable rich text to get this to work properly. It’s been a long time since I started this thread and around a year since I bought the equipment I was asking about. I've therefore had plenty of time to live with my solution and, so, feel that I can give an informed opinion in case anyone else is thinking of doing something similar. For playback purposes, I bought an Arcam rDAC and can report that it sounds very nearly as good as the DAC in my Arcam CD92 CD player. I was able to compare the two DACs by connecting the CD player to both the amplifier and the rDAC at the same time and switching inputs on the amp mid-song. The CD player's internal DAC has a higher output level which helps make it sound clearer, so it’s possible that the rDAC is not actually inferior, just quieter. I spent a long time looking at reviews of analogue to digital converters and, ultimately, could find no evidence that spending £300 on such a device was going to get me better quality than a Cakewalk AU-1G. More inputs and better features certainly, but I only needed the one input, with level attenuation and as little as possible effect on the sound otherwise. Initially, I found that my recordings, made with the Cakewalk connected to my main desktop PC, had a constant hum. This hum could not be heard through the speakers while recording, it only became apparent when playing back the recordings. Further testing revealed that if the phono-stage was disconnected from the amplifier, or the Cakewalk was not used (i.e. recording using the PC’s on-board sound-chip) this hum did not occur. Finally, I tried connecting the Cakewalk to my laptop, instead of the desktop machine and that also eliminated the mains-hum, so I’ve been making recordings that I’m very happy with ever since. Martin

 

[Anonymous]

If anyone is curious, there is a torrent of sample recording made from vinyl using the Cakewalk UA-1G which can be found at http://btjunkie.org/torrent/Cakewalk-UA-1G-Test-Recordings/3280b82886cd32cf2f64fc6391caa64d72c1ea143fc3.

These recordings were all made at 24 bit / 96 kb/s. The torrent includes the original recordings and copies down-sampled to 16/44.1.