Excellent Stereo Performance - For A Receiver!

Crocodile

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Further to my earlier post regarding an amp upgrade for my M34is, I've been doing quite a lot of reading. Something that keeps coming up in reviews of multi-channel receivers is a variation on the thread title. Now I really would like an a single amp to do both tasks so the question is, what does this statement mean? I'm not helped when similar statements are applied apparently equally to £300 & £1500 receivers.

I guess what I'm looking for to make sense of these reviews, is some kind of comparison between the stereo performance of a receiver against say the current budget favourite, the Marantz PM6002.
 

Lost Angeles

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Crocodile:

Further to my earlier post regarding an amp upgrade for my M34is, I've been doing quite a lot of reading. Something that keeps coming up in reviews of multi-channel receivers is a variation on the thread title. Now I really would like an a single amp to do both tasks so the question is, what does this statement mean? I'm not helped when similar statements are applied apparently equally to £300 & £1500 receivers.

I guess what I'm looking for to make sense of these reviews, is some kind of comparison between the stereo performance of a receiver against say the current budget favourite, the Marantz PM6002.

As no-one else has come back on this I'll start the ball rolling by doing a comparison

Between my Onkyo 875 and a Audiolab 8000A from 1986. After reading something on the Home Cinema section on Monday night, last night I decided to disconnect my front speakers from my Audiolab and connect them to my Onk to do a comparion. I bi-amped the Onk and set it up in the pure audio mode. I connected my CDP using Phono and Digital Coaxial cables and thought the Phono was slightly the better.

The sound was very bright and forward sounding with a lack of depth to the bass. The treble sounded very tinny and vocals sounded thin and had no warmth to them. My wife came in and said " that's sounds bright, drumming sounds like someone's banging 2 wooden spoons on a saucepan". There also appears to be less separation than the Audiolab.
My CDP is an Arcam 192 which most people on here would say is warm sounding and my Speakers are B&W 684s which are not bass shy.
I did not alter the tone controls.

If one of the more knowlegable people than me can now compare the Audiolab to the Marantz or tell you how much you would need to spend to equal the Audiolab today this may help you.

PS trevor79 will now come on and tell you his Onkyo 875 with a cleaned up mains is musically better than a Cyrus 8. I would have thought a Cyrus 8 with a cleaned up mains should outperform an Onkyo 875 but I have not heard a Cyrus 8.

I hope this is some use to you.
 
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Anonymous

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Hi. I dont think any av receiver can hold a candle to any half decent stereo amp. I have the onkyo 875 also, great for movies, ps3 and xbox, but for music, it's just rubbish! I would say a stereo amp of £250 would give you better sound quality than the onkyo.

P.S I have a cyrus cd8se, pre vs2 and an 8 power amp and it blows the onk out the water, cant wait to add another amp and some psx-r's!
 
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Anonymous

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Evening

You did not alter the tone controls, by what you say they badly need setting up for music. Also the gain control for the speakers which gives it a more detailed / musical sound.

Doesn't sound nice at all, very strangled unlike mine.

I agree that with you that with a straight A/B comparision just plugged in the 875 is handicapped with the smearing on its 7 x AV channel boards.
I too didn't think it was anything to write home about on music without addressing its supply of power.
With the size of the transformer it houses it radiates a lot of noise if poorly fed.
 

Lost Angeles

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Evening Trevor

I was going to reply but have just realised the bottom section of your post is missing.
I think Dontcallmeshirley backs up my theory though and I hope this helps the original poster.
I'm off to watch a movie with surround sound, something the 875 does well, I think we'll agree on that.
 

Crocodile

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Thanks for the input guys.

Sheer logic dictates that a box with 5, 6 or 7 channels of amplification plus processing, DAC & a radio tuner is unlikely to be any match for a dedicated amp. And yet reviews are littered with the likes of:

As musical as they come - Onkyo TX-SR505 - £250.

Good with stereo music - Sony STR-DG820 - £300

Dynamic, detailed sound with movies & music - Yamaha DSP-AX763 - £400

And so it goes on, right up through the price range. I would just like to know on what sort of basis these statements are made.

Personally I've decided to ignore all of it & go for a dedicated stereo with a 3 channel processor.
 

up the music

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I have a Yamaha RX-V740RDS. One up from the budget (£350) ace RX-V640 of 5 or 6 years ago. In straight stereo terms it lags some way behind my trusty old A&R A60 integrated (£200 in 1983). I bought the Yammy a Rotel RB970 power amp (£150 in 1995ish) and that helped to give a more 'natural sound'.

I'd expect the Cyrus and Arcam type of AV amps (those companies with an audiophile pedigree if you like) to fare better in stereo terms than most other similar priced AV amps.

I'd interpret terms like 'as musical as they come' to mean 'as musical as a £250 AV amp comes'. That is not as musical as a £250 stereo amp comes.
 

Andrew Everard

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up the music:
I'd interpret terms like 'as musical as they come' to mean 'as musical as a £250 AV amp comes'. That is not as musical as a £250 stereo amp comes.

Exactly.
 

margetti

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emotion-19.gif
Lost Angeles:
As no-one else has come back on this I'll start the ball rolling by doing a comparison

Between my Onkyo 875 and a Audiolab 8000A from 1986. After reading something on the Home Cinema section on Monday night, last night I decided to disconnect my front speakers from my Audiolab and connect them to my Onk to do a comparion. I bi-amped the Onk and set it up in the pure audio mode. I connected my CDP using Phono and Digital Coaxial cables and thought the Phono was slightly the better.

The sound was very bright and forward sounding with a lack of depth to the bass. The treble sounded very tinny and vocals sounded thin and had no warmth to them. My wife came in and said " that's sounds bright, drumming sounds like someone's banging 2 wooden spoons on a saucepan". There also appears to be less separation than the Audiolab.
My CDP is an Arcam 192 which most people on here would say is warm sounding and my Speakers are B&W 684s which are not bass shy.

I have been toying with the idea of doing exactly this since getting my 876 back in December, but you've saved me the effort (which it is with no real space behind the rack), so thanks! I know the missus and kids would appreciate the stereo amp gone as it does cause some confusion after listening to CD's or records, but no, not going to happen...

I will say though that an iPod thru the Onk on all channel stereo, after many glasses of wine
emotion-19.gif
, doesn't sound too bad!
emotion-5.gif
 

Crocodile

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So is there a price point where the stereo performance of a receiver is rated in absolute terms? Clearly as I've already said, you can't expect the same level of performance from a receiver & an integrated amp at the same price point. But unless there is some sort of qualification as to stereo performance, then the reviews may as well be commenting on aerodynamics.

Taking the Arcam AVR350 as a case in point, the review states:

"In stereo, even the most ardent of two-channel devotees couldn't fail
to be impressed: the AVR350 offers chunky, precise bass, smooth and
soaring treble and a midrange that combines openness, realism and punch."

Now are we talking about being impressed - for a receiver, or being impressed in absolute terms? What would be a comparable integrated?
 

Lost Angeles

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Further to my previous rant on this topic, I have recently listened to a Marantz PM7200 KI Sig and this is an even bigger improvement on the Onkyo 875 quality in stereo.
I think if you were to take all the extras off a £1000 A/V Receiver (Video upscaling, Tuner, HDMI throughput, all the extra connections for speakers, pre-outs etc etc) I think you would be left with a £300 stereo amp.

Next week I will give my Onkyo 875 a good listen too in it's stereo mode, adjust the tone controls and post a new thread to discuss with trevor79 about the gain etc. But over the next few nights I am going to watch some cricket from the Caribbean and become brassed off about how nice the weather is there compared to here. I'll also have to get some Red Stripe in. Cheers
 
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Anonymous

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My best guess is its a 10 to one ratio where a 100pound stereo amp equals a 1000 pound receiver.

By the by, didn't realise how good my Marantz cd player was until I put it through my 239 euro NAD. It was wasted on my award-winning good with stereo AV receiver.
 

jerryyeatman

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Do we reckon the inferior performance of the multi channel receivers is down to pre-amp or power-amp parts of the receivers? And if one were to add a quality stereo power-amp to the pre-outs of a multi channel receiver how much would this improve things?
 

Lost Angeles

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jerryyeatman:Do we reckon the inferior performance of the multi channel receivers is down to pre-amp or power-amp parts of the receivers? And if one were to add a quality stereo power-amp to the pre-outs of a multi channel receiver how much would this improve things?

I think Andrew had a pair of MF 550K Superchargers on the end of a Onkyo 875 feeding some PMC speakers and got a decent sound . The question here though is how good a Stereo amp could you get for the cost of a pair of MF 550ks and which combination is the better.
My apologies Andrew if this is incorrect
 
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Anonymous

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Tarquinh:
My best guess is its a 10 to one ratio where a 100pound stereo amp equals a 1000 pound receiver.

By the by, didn't realise how good my Marantz cd player was until I put it through my 239 euro NAD. It was wasted on my award-winning good with stereo AV receiver.

Bit over the top there! ive had a rotel 1072 intagrated amp alongside my 875 and to be honest the rotel was better but not by the margin i expected, and the rotels a decent £500 integrated amp. I recon its more in the region £1000 av amp = £300 pound integrated.....very roughly
 
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Anonymous

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Hi Guys

Hi-Fi is not straight forward, is it?

It would be nice to buy a piece of kit, take it home, plug it in and it sound as good as it could possibly be without any messing about. Oh hum.

Many years ago I came to realise that 'High End' amplification was very much down to a large transformer, a very, very good diode bridge, (clean, fast recovery, one way/no seepage) decent reservoir capacitance and keeping both power rails decoupled!
Followed by a well designed Pre-Amp built with high end components. Oh, and putting the power side as far away as possible from the signal circuits as the buggers do interact.
That's why Mono Amps, Pre Amps and PSX units were invented.

And the daddy of them all was a 'Full Class A' design if you wanted power... Expensive.

Then along came Onkyo making something for a price that defied believe, the spec (and weight) of the 875/905 and build quality was unheard of.
It should have sounded amazing on music given the Burr Brown Op amps but there is too much contamination out of that massive transformer and amplification which smears everything up.
Well what do you expect when it is built to put out 7 x 200 watts per channel!

Getting rid of the 'Ripple Effect' is simply down to a totally stable and pure Mains feed coming into the unit. Then it works beautifully.

Sort that and you will have no desire to buy another amp again, ever.

Speakers mind, that is another question. ;-)
 

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