Cyrus. . .is it worth the premium?

[plastic penguin]

Given the economy so on and so forth, is the new Cyrus worth £600 or so more than the old one? I appreciate it has an on-board DAC, but sonically, is it way superior to the 8VS2?

Don't get me wrong I'm not sceptical, just wondering if it is than does that have any influence on the make of speaker you choose?

 

[chebby]

I am sure for committed Cyrus owners it must be their dream come true and therefore worth every penny.

WHF judges it worth every penny.

They also recommend partnering with the ATC SCM40 'speakers

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi guys

The 8xpd is sufficient to work with the ATC's SCM40 speakers and you also don't necessarily need their pre-powers or an amplifier the size of a truck to work with ATC speakers.

Thanks

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Frank Harvey]

Well I'm going to fly in the face of what seems to be common opinion - I've just been running the SCM11's off the 8XPD, and while it sounds ok - can't help thinking it could be better - the 8XPD isn't enough for those that like slightly louder volumes. I ran it for about half an hour at-20dB, and it was almost sizzling hot - so obviously this isn't going to do the job for those that like a decently long and loud enough listening session. For me, I'd like to know there's a bit more in reserve, but I'd have been scared to turn it up any louder or run it for much longer. It will be the same results with the SCM40's, as their sensitivity is the same.

There may be many people out there running this range on amps with less power than the 8XPD - all I can say is they must be listening to their systems at background levels, average levels, or for short periods of time. Whatever the opinions, this is proof the 8XPD isn't enough to run the SCM range safely or sufficiently. I stand by my recommendation, and the other guys here, of a pre/power combination for the SCM series.

 

[SteveR750]

But Dave, in all reality, how many systems are capable of delivering real world volumes for any length of time? Not ones that most of us can afford (both financially, spacially and in the interests of good neighbourly relations!).

That doesn't mean that I necassarily disagree with you view, if only as I have not heard the 8 qwith ATC's, and in any case IMO and is just that an opinion 70W just seems to be short change at this price level, and its one of the (smaller) reasons why I preferred the K2 over the Cyrus 6 amp

 

[Frank Harvey]

It's all down to our individual classification of 'real world'. A careful match of an amplifier with a decent level of current and an efficient pair of speakers can give people the volume they're after, it's just that it wouldn't be this particular match or combination that would suffice.

It's worth mentioning again that many people listen at volumes where this wouldn't be a problem, but there are a number of people who need the extra headroom, without fear of system limitations or damage.

 

[plastic penguin]

FrankHarveyHiFi:

It's all down to our individual classification of 'real world'. A careful match of an amplifier with a decent level of current and an efficient pair of speakers can give people the volume they're after, it's just that it wouldn't be this particular match or combination that would suffice.

It's worth mentioning again that many people listen at volumes where this wouldn't be a problem, but there are a number of people who need the extra headroom, without fear of system limitations or damage.

Hey, guys. Where has the issue of speaker comparison come into the equation. I just the begged the question of whether other speakers would be better suited to the new Cyrus (compared to the old version), not what brands would make it hot or test its 70 Watts per channel.

 

[Frank Harvey]

plastic penguin:Hey, guys. Where has the issue of speaker comparison come into the equation. I just the begged the question of whether other speakers would be better suited to the new Cyrus (compared to the old version), not what brands would make it hot or test its 70 Watts per channel.ATC's were mentioned, so I've posted with reference to that - and as stated, a better speaker pairing can and should be found - ideally speakers with a more acceptable sensitivity, and also those who's impedance DOESN'T dip extremely low - or a combination of both!

 

[plastic penguin]

FrankHarveyHiFi:plastic penguin:Hey, guys. Where has the issue of speaker comparison come into the equation. I just the begged the question of whether other speakers would be better suited to the new Cyrus (compared to the old version), not what brands would make it hot or test its 70 Watts per channel.ATC's were mentioned, so I've posted with reference to that - and as stated, a better speaker pairing can and should be found - ideally speakers with a more acceptable sensitivity, and also those who's impedance dips extremely low - or a combination of both!

So, going back to my original question: is the new Cyrus, in the real world, sonically, worth the extra £600 or so over the old 8VS2?

Answers on a postcard. . .

 

[SteveR750]

I'm struggling to understand the validity of the question, since only those that have either purchased said amp, or are selling it will confirm its' VFM. The rest of us that dont buy will either post No or Don't Know. Only your ears can tell you what £600 is worth surely? Otherwise this will simply become a debate about the definition of value for money.

If it helps, then my personal answer today is No, but next year it might be yes.....

 

[plastic penguin]

SteveR750:

I'm struggling to understand the validity of the question, since only those that have either purchased said amp, or are selling it will confirm its' VFM. The rest of us that dont buy will either post No or Don't Know. Only your ears can tell you what £600 is worth surely? Otherwise this will simply become a debate about the definition of value for money.

If it helps, then my personal answer today is No, but next year it might be yes.....

I was hoping the guys at 'The Towers' were going to clarify things.

 

[Frank Harvey]

plastic penguin: So, going back to my original question: is the new Cyrus, in the real world, sonically, worth the extra £600 or so over the old 8VS2?This I think can only be answered by the individual, as some may feel its worth, some not. Those that have a dedicated CD transports will have a case for buying an 8XPD, and those that purchase this amp will have the possibility of exploring that particular side of hi-fi that many people don't get to. Also, those with older CD players can use them as a transport and use the 8XPD to upgrade that CD player, if you know what I mean.

So in short - it's an individual choice as to whether the newer ones are value for money

 

[MUSICRAFT]

FrankHarveyHiFi:plastic penguin:Hey, guys. Where has the issue of speaker comparison come into the equation. I just the begged the question of whether other speakers would be better suited to the new Cyrus (compared to the old version), not what brands would make it hot or test its 70 Watts per channel.ATC's were mentioned, so I've posted with reference to that - and as stated, a better speaker pairing can and should be found - ideally speakers with a more acceptable sensitivity, and also those who's impedance dips extremely low - or a combination of both!

Hi David (Frank Harvey)

So you would pair the 8XPD with higher sensitivity speakers (than what the ATC's are rated at) but with speakers which also have an extremely low impedence! I take it that by extremely low impedence you are probably referring to a loads of around 2ohms or lower! With these sorts of loads you are in essence asking the 8XPD to triple or quadruple it's effort!

I am pretty sure that you would have read this by now in some of my posts (regarding the low efficiency of ATC speakers) on other threads so i'll keep it brief -

The fact is that the impedence of a speaker is far more important. ATC's drive units are very constant allowing an amplifier (providing it is sufficiently potent - which in this case the 8XPD is) to deliver it's full power all the time (prior to clipping). Some very efficient speakers have an impedence that can drop to low levels such as 2ohms. At this level many amplifiers will struggle and will not provide sufficient power or will even go no power at all.

I stand to be corrected but i am pretty sure that over the last few years WHF themselves have suggested 8/8vs amplifiers with ATC's SCM11 speakers and now the 8XPD (70w) with the even bigger and more expensive SCM40's.

The ATC's engineering is superb and as a result their speakers have (amongst other qualities) an uncoloured, neutral, natural and powerful presentation. The ATC's (with their low distortion levels) allow connected components to breathe so that even at low, moderate and normal levels (providing the amplifier in particular is sufficiently potent) the connected components qualities can shine through.

Every amplifier has got a limit (even a Krell KSA50 @ 50w which can still out drive/perform many amplifiers of even higher power figures) but that's not to say that amplifiers with modest power ratings (providing they are suficiently potent) cannot be safely used with ATC speakers (providing that disco levels are not sought after). It's not like ATC's speakers are reactive loads.

Thanks

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[manicm]

FrankHarveyHiFi:

Well I'm going to fly in the face of what seems to be common opinion - I've just been running the SCM11's off the 8XPD, and while it sounds ok - can't help thinking it could be better - the 8XPD isn't enough for those that like slightly louder volumes. I ran it for about half an hour at-20dB, and it was almost sizzling hot - so obviously this isn't going to do the job for those that like a decently long and loud enough listening session. For me, I'd like to know there's a bit more in reserve, but I'd have been scared to turn it up any louder or run it for much longer. It will be the same results with the SCM40's, as their sensitivity is the same.

There may be many people out there running this range on amps with less power than the 8XPD - all I can say is they must be listening to their systems at background levels, average levels, or for short periods of time. Whatever the opinions, this is proof the 8XPD isn't enough to run the SCM range safely or sufficiently. I stand by my recommendation, and the other guys here, of a pre/power combination for the SCM series.

Not quite sure I understand - maybe the 8XPd's natural operation is to get hot - like Class A amplifiers? Also, you don't mention the adverse effect on sound quality, if any?

 

[Frank Harvey]

FrankHarveyHiFi:......... and as stated, a better speaker pairing can and should be found - ideally speakers with a more acceptable sensitivity, and also those who's impedance dips extremely low - or a combination of both!I balls'd up there - that was meant to say speakers who's impedance DOESN'T dip extremely low! I'll amend so as not to give wrong advice

 

[Frank Harvey]

manicm:Not quite sure I understand - maybe the 8XPd's natural operation is to get hot - like Class A amplifiers? Also, you don't mention the adverse effect on sound quality, if any?This was hot like a 6VS2 would get driving Dynaudio. As for it's effect on sound quality, the two albums I was playing, Elysian Field's Bleed Your Cedar and BT's Movement In Still Life, wasn't really blowing my socks off. I've heard the SCM11's sound much better (Naim 122x/150x), so maybe it was affecting quality - I'm not familiar enough with the amp to say at this point.

 

[Frank Harvey]

MUSICRAFT:The fact is that the impedence of a speaker is far more important. ATC's drive units are very constant allowing an amplifier (providing it is sufficiently potent - which in this case the 8XPD is) to deliver it's full power all the time (prior to clipping). Some very efficient speakers have an impedence that can drop to low levels such as 2ohms. At this level many amplifiers will struggle and will not provide sufficient power or will even go no power at all.I agree that impedance is more important. I've made this point many times on another forum when people are using certain speakers with certain priced AV amps. No one seems to listen and think that I'm just making it up - they will learn when their amp needs repairing under warranty and they get charged for it. When sensitivity is low, particularly under average levels, this becomes important too. Low sensitivity is low efficiency, and places more demands on the amplifier.

Every amplifier has got a limit (even a Krell KSA50 @ 50w which can still out drive/perform many amplifiers of even higher power figures) but that's not to say that amplifiers with modest power ratings (providing they are suficiently potent) cannot be safely used with ATC speakers (providing that disco levels are not sought after).I agree that any amplifier will work with any speaker, as long as the amp is used within it's operating limits. Obviously Krell's 50w is quite different to 50w provided by the average budget 50w amplifier.