Can high volumes damage speakers?

[Purestour]

Hi,

I have been reading the forum for a while, but it is my first post.

I am new to Hi-FI, owning my system for just over 3 months.

This comprises of the Arcam A19 amplifier, Q acoustics 2050i speakers, Marantz CD6004, Project Debut Carbon turntable- latest addition has been the Arcam rBlink for my mobile devices.

To start with, I am absolutely satisfied with my system and personally feel it sounds amazing.

I have spent a considerable amount of time to smoothly run both speakers and amplifier in, and generally I listen to music in moderate volumes, ranging from 25-40/100 as displayed on the amplifier.

Volume levels are generally adequate, however I cannot say that I am not tempted to turn up volume to higher than 50/100 levels. I confess my ignorance on tech specs and I am worried whether high volume levels can damage speakers or its tweeters. A while ago, experienced forum members suggested that another forum member had damaged his standmount speaker tweeters listening to high volumes on the same amplifier.

So my question is whether there is such a risk for the 2050i speakers.

kind Regards

 

[Happy_Listner]

I have owned the Arcam A18 and I would say not to turn the volume up higher than the low 50's on your A19. That shuld be plenty loud.

 

[plastic penguin]

Welcome to the circus.

Yes, an underpowered amp playing at high volumes can damage a speaker. The damage usually comes when the amp/sound starts to 'clip' or distort. This can be detected in a number of ways: The sound could harden or sound overlly tinny. Or the presentation can pick-up slight distortion, although the latter I haven't heard for a couple of decades.

Generally better to buy an overpowered amp i.e. 100 watts per channel with 80 watt speakers. Then you have to factor in the speaker ohms, so if they are 4-6 and you only have a 50 watt amp, it's best not to crank the amp up for prolonged periods, aside from 'clipping' amps have been known to cut out.

The best advice is to choose a speaker/amp combo that best suits your listening needs.

Hope that helps.

 

[davedotco]

This post brings up a number of issues that a lot of people seem to have problems with.

Firstly the question of power. In this case we have a 50watt rms amplifier, by definition it's peak power wil be √2 x 50, about 72 watts.

Play some music, good modern recordings may have a dynamic range of about 20dB, so peaks are 10dB (10 times) higher than the average power so, with the amp turned up to just below clipping, it will be delivering 72 watts peaks and just 7.2 watts average.

This will be phenominally loud in a hi-fi setup, but in different circumstances this kind of power might be needed, it is what happens when the amplifier is driven into clip that is the issue. All kinds of things happen in these circumstances and speakers and amplifiers get damaged despite the fact that the amplifiers rated power is well below the rated maximum handling of the speakers.

Secondly there is the question of the volume control. The important thing to understand is that the setting or position of the control bears no relation to the power being delivered by the amplifier. Modern amplifiers tend to 'get loud' at quite low settings of the volume control, the reasons for this have been explained before, though Arcam are by no means worst in this respect.

The earlier poster was correct, the maximum usable setting for the Arcam volume is probably around 50-60 though many amps will clip at lower settings than that, crazy I know, buts that is how it is.

 

[Vladimir]

Regardless of amplifier power or clipping, home hi-fi speakers are mechanical devices and quite frail. Playing home hi-fi speakers too loud for too long will damage them or just produce quicker amortization and shorter life span. Professional speakers are made more robust for this reason.

 

[unsleepable]

I suppose that the volume we hear when the amplifier starts clipping will depend on the speakers—on how loud they are to drive and, therefore, the amount of sound they produce. But is the clipping volume position fixed for a given amplifier, or will the position of the volume at which the amplifier starts clipping also depend on the speakers?

 

[davedotco]

I suppose that the volume we hear when the amplifier starts clipping will depend on the speakers—on how loud they are to drive and, therefore, the amount of sound they produce. But is the clipping volume position fixed for a given amplifier, or will the position of the volume at which the amplifier starts clipping also depend on the speakers?

Speakers really have nothing to do with it in this context. An amplifier will clip when the peaks of the signal exceed the peak capability of the amplifier, I explained that above.

The percieved volume at which that happens will depend on the sensitivity of the speaker. An example, the Q Acoustics 2050i has a quoted sensitivity of 93dB/watt and the ATC SCM7 of 84dB/watt. All this means is that, for a given volume setting, clipping say, the 2050i will sound much louder than the SCM7, though the volume control setting will be exactly the same! (In fact the difference is enormous in this case, 9dB, using your 50 watt Arcam and 2050i as a reference the ATC will require 400 watts to deliver the same volume levels.)

The position of the volume control that defines clipping is primarily dependent on the input level from the source being played. For example a phono stage, or an old fashioned tuner might put out about 500mv whereas a CD player will put out 2volts. Common sense tells us that, for a given input level, the smaller signal will need more amplification than the larger, so the CD player will not need to be turned up anywhere near as far as the phono stage or tuner for the same volume in the above example. Ie the CD player may clip at 40/100 whereas the phono stage/tuner may clip at around 60/100.

 

[Purestour]

Many useful remarks in the above comments- thanks.

And a very practical analysis by Dave- you have clarified many queries. Very interesting point that clipping is signal dependant;

I listen mainly to vinyl- I assumed that the fact that most records sound quiter compared to CDs at the exact same volume levels, has to do with the low input signal. Glad to know though, that I can turn the knob a bit further if needed when using my turntable as a source.

But again, some vinyl records sound louder than others- and I find that new vinyl many times sound poorer compared to original second hand ones (I mainly listen to 80's new wave, post-punk, synth pop, dark wave). These flaws of new pressings have been revealed to me since I started listening to my collection from scratch in the new setup. Irritating of course , considering the amount of money new vinyl costs. But this is something that has been discussed already in multiple past threads.

Thanks everybody- keep enjoying your favourite music in quality sound.

regards

 

[davedotco]

Ok. One thing to add which I was reminded of by Cno's recent thread.

The A19 implements a gentle roll off at sub bass frequencies but that might not be sufficient. Take the grills off the speakers and play a record, look to see how much the bass cone seems to be moving on pasages that are quiet and have little bass content.

If they are moving obviously, particularly if you move around the room or very gently tap the player or whatever it is sitting on, then you may have a problem.

Sub bass frequencies can cause the bass drivers in ported speakers to flap and move far to much. This can damage the speakers, cause the amplifier to be overdriven or just muddy the sound. Worth checking out.

 

[unsleepable]

Speakers really have nothing to do with it in this context. An amplifier will clip when the peaks of the signal exceed the peak capability of the amplifier, I explained that above.

The percieved volume at which that happens will depend on the sensitivity of the speaker. An example, the Q Acoustics 2050i has a quoted sensitivity of 93dB/watt and the ATC SCM7 of 84dB/watt. All this means is that, for a given volume setting, clipping say, the 2050i will sound much louder than the SCM7, though the volume control setting will be exactly the same! (In fact the difference is enormous in this case, 9dB, using your 50 watt Arcam and 2050i as a reference the ATC will require 400 watts to deliver the same volume levels.)

The position of the volume control that defines clipping is primarily dependent on the input level from the source being played. For example a phono stage, or an old fashioned tuner might put out about 500mv whereas a CD player will put out 2volts. Common sense tells us that, for a given input level, the smaller signal will need more amplification than the larger, so the CD player will not need to be turned up anywhere near as far as the phono stage or tuner for the same volume in the above example. Ie the CD player may clip at 40/100 whereas the phono stage/tuner may clip at around 60/100.

Very informative as always. Thanks!

 

[Vladimir]

I have yet to see a "Will loud music damage my hearing" thread on audiophile forums...

 

[plastic penguin]

I have yet to see a "Will loud music damage my hearing" thread on audiophile forums...

Hey?!! What?!! nearly 2 o'clock.

 

[Thropplenoggin]

An interesting thread - thanks to the patient replies from the knowledgeable members above!

Dave - would you say this is a 'problem' all sub-£1000 integrated amps suffer, or just a 'fact of life' one has to live with?

The OP's set-up is similar to one I'm interested in...Arcam A19 + QA 2050i, but I haven't settled on anything yet. I want to get the best value budget amp I can for around £500. The Brio-R and Exposure 1010 are also of interest. Music is mostly classical, the broad dynamics of which are, I believe, difficult to cater for in budget gear.

Throppers

 

[davedotco]

Back in the day, around 1980, the peoples republic under Ken Livingstone thought it a good idea to introduce sound level limiters in pubs and clubs in London.

A SPL meter was to be fitted that cut power to the stage when the SPL went above a certain level, several figures were tried, around the 100dB mark.

On one occasion GLC inspectors were in a pub/venue whilst we were setting up for a gig, I was messing about setting up front of house whilst the drummer was setting up on stage. Concluding his setup the drummer took his position and started playing, the power (including lights etc) to the stage immediately switched off as the SPL limit was exceeded.

The inspector pointed to me and the desk and said something about me playing much to loud, as the lights came back up, it was immediately obvious that, at that time, noting was connected to the desk, which was not even powered up. Cue some embarassment.

The GLC concluded that this was unworkable but interestingly in an attempt to justify their u-turn the quoted a study that showed that hearing loss was strongly related to stress, not just SPL.

In essence it was saying that high SPLs were more damaging if they were noise and causing stress, displeasure if you like, than if they were causing pleasure as at a gig.

I always thought that pretty interesting, though I do not recall the conclusions being followed up in any way....... :?

 

[davedotco]

An interesting thread - thanks to the patient replies from the knowledgeable members above!

Dave - would you say this is a 'problem' all sub-£1000 integrated amps suffer, or just a 'fact of life' one has to live with?

The OP's set-up is similar to one I'm interested in...Arcam A19 + QA 2050i, but I haven't settled on anything yet. I want to get the best value budget amp I can for around £500. The Brio-R and Exposure 1010 are also of interest. Music is mostly classical, the broad dynamics of which are, I believe, difficult to cater for in budget gear.

Throppers

To be honest the problem is really only an issue with poorly assembled systems that are required to play pretty loud, this is particularly the case with modern, heavy, bass driven music where bass boost is applied and the volume turned up. In such cases amplifiers can be overdriven pretty easily.

For most 'normal' music a well chosen system will have no problems, sure classical recordings have greater dynamic range but unless you want to listen to, say, solo piano at 'real' levels you are not going to overdrive an amp, even if you do the brief transients that are clipped are far less disruptive than the constant clipping of overdriven pop and dance music.

The 2050i speakers are a big help too, sensitive (92-93dB/watt) and generally easy to drive they will produce prodigeous levels with the amps mentioned, one point though, these speakers need space around them if they are to stay in control and give of their best. If space is tight, you may have to look elsewhere.