Box Room Listening

[Daz B]

I currently have our box room as my dedicated listening room.
The room measures just 2m x 2m which is less than ideal.
Recently I feel less than satisfied with my system. My system consists of a 20 year old Kenwood 3020 se amp, Mission M71 speakers, Rega P1 turntable and Marantz CD 63. I have recently purchased a vintage Thorens TD 150 turntable but needs a new cartridge.
The question is will upgrading my amp and speakers be wasted in such a small room ?.
I feel a speaker upgrade may provide a better listening experience but have concerns regarding the limited scope for speaker placement.
I am looking at speakers in the £500 to £1000 price range.

 

[expat_mike]

I would be tempted to go down the headphones route, and only upgrade your speakers if you move to a larger room.

 

[davedotco]

I currently have our box room as my dedicated listening room. The room measures just 2m x 2m which is less than ideal. Recently I feel less than satisfied with my system. My system consists of a 20 year old Kenwood 3020 se amp, Mission M71 speakers, Rega P1 turntable and Marantz CD 63. I have recently purchased a vintage Thorens TD 150 turntable but needs a new cartridge. The question is will upgrading my amp and speakers be wasted in such a small room ?. I feel a speaker upgrade may provide a better listening experience but have concerns regarding the limited scope for speaker placement. I am looking at speakers in the £500 to £1000 price range.

About what you are trying to achieve and how to get there. Small rooms can be a pain, but if they are dedicated listening rooms, with no other purpose, then all is not lost.

Forget about any sort of conventional layout, place both the listening position and the speakers as close to the centre of the room as possible. You will be sitting very 'near field' so experiment with the angles, I find crossing the speaker axis just in front of the listening position works well, but do play about.

Get as much damping into the room as possible, whether soft furnishings or purpose built, controlling the primary resonances will help a lot, you are sitting close, the bass will be the issue so do what you can, then adjust both the seating and speaker positions.

Finally make sure that your record player is properly supported, whichever one you use. This is important in any system but absolutely critical in such a small room.

 

[Daz B]

I would be tempted to go down the headphones route, and only upgrade your speakers if you move to a larger room.

I use headphones for late night listening but I do prefere speakers at all other times.
Perhaps some better headphones could provide more enjoyment with my limited space.

 

[Daz B]

I currently have our box room as my dedicated listening room. The room measures just 2m x 2m which is less than ideal. Recently I feel less than satisfied with my system. My system consists of a 20 year old Kenwood 3020 se amp, Mission M71 speakers, Rega P1 turntable and Marantz CD 63. I have recently purchased a vintage Thorens TD 150 turntable but needs a new cartridge. The question is will upgrading my amp and speakers be wasted in such a small room ?. I feel a speaker upgrade may provide a better listening experience but have concerns regarding the limited scope for speaker placement. I am looking at speakers in the £500 to £1000 price range.

About what you are trying to achieve and how to get there. Small rooms can be a pain, but if they are dedicated listening rooms, with no other purpose, then all is not lost.

Forget about any sort of conventional layout, place both the listening position and the speakers as close to the centre of the room as possible. You will be sitting very 'near field' so experiment with the angles, I find crossing the speaker axis just in front of the listening position works well, but do play about.

Get as much damping into the room as possible, whether soft furnishings or purpose built, controlling the primary resonances will help a lot, you are sitting close, the bass will be the issue so do what you can, then adjust both the seating and speaker positions.

Finally make sure that your record player is properly supported, whichever one you use. This is important in any system but absolutely critical in such a small room.

It's interesting sugessting moving nearer to the speakers. I feel I am close enough as is it.
I have tried speaker placemement and believe I have them in the best position.
I will try your sugestion.
The main issue I have is my system doesn't sound very good at low volume and wondered if a better amp or speakers could change this.

 

[davedotco]

I currently have our box room as my dedicated listening room. The room measures just 2m x 2m which is less than ideal. Recently I feel less than satisfied with my system. My system consists of a 20 year old Kenwood 3020 se amp, Mission M71 speakers, Rega P1 turntable and Marantz CD 63. I have recently purchased a vintage Thorens TD 150 turntable but needs a new cartridge. The question is will upgrading my amp and speakers be wasted in such a small room ?. I feel a speaker upgrade may provide a better listening experience but have concerns regarding the limited scope for speaker placement. I am looking at speakers in the £500 to £1000 price range.

About what you are trying to achieve and how to get there. Small rooms can be a pain, but if they are dedicated listening rooms, with no other purpose, then all is not lost.

Forget about any sort of conventional layout, place both the listening position and the speakers as close to the centre of the room as possible. You will be sitting very 'near field' so experiment with the angles, I find crossing the speaker axis just in front of the listening position works well, but do play about.

Get as much damping into the room as possible, whether soft furnishings or purpose built, controlling the primary resonances will help a lot, you are sitting close, the bass will be the issue so do what you can, then adjust both the seating and speaker positions.

Finally make sure that your record player is properly supported, whichever one you use. This is important in any system but absolutely critical in such a small room.

It's interesting sugessting moving nearer to the speakers. I feel I am close enough as is it. I have tried speaker placemement and believe I have them in the best position. I will try your sugestion. The main issue I have is my system doesn't sound very good at low volume and wondered if a better amp or speakers could change this.

This is a separate issue and probably not room related. You need to look at each issue separately.

Firstly the room, virtually a cube so all the primary resonance modes are the same, damping the room will help but best to avoid driving these modes if at all possible. This means getting both the speakers and the listening position as far away from boundaries as possible.

Good small speakers can be listened to up close, the soundstage will form behind the speakers if the positioning is correct, as I said forget convention, you can get better results by trying things differently.

Bear in mind that in a small room microphonic effects will be emphasised, so supporting the turntable will be pivotal. For the Rega, a wall shelf is probably best though the Thorens, with it's suspended sub-chassis will be better off on a light rigid table.

If the lack of quality persists, whatever you do to the setup, then the components are not good enough for your requirements, you may have to consider a new amp and speakers.

 

[Daz B]

I currently have our box
room as my dedicated listening room. The room measures just 2m x 2m which is less than ideal. Recently I feel less than satisfied with my system. My system consists of a 20 year old Kenwood 3020 se amp, Mission M71 speakers, Rega P1 turntable and Marantz CD 63. I have recently purchased a vintage Thorens TD 150 turntable but needs a new cartridge. The question is will upgrading my amp and speakers be wasted in such a small room ?. I feel a speaker upgrade may provide a better listening experience but have concerns regarding the limited scope for speaker placement. I am looking at speakers in the £500 to £1000 price range.

About what you are trying to achieve and how to get there. Small rooms can be a pain, but if they are dedicated listening rooms, with no other purpose, then all is not lost.

Forget about any sort of conventional layout, place both the listening position and the speakers as close to the centre of the room as possible. You will be sitting very 'near field' so experiment with the angles, I find crossing the speaker axis just in front of the listening position works well, but do play about.

Get as much damping into the room as possible, whether soft furnishings or purpose built, controlling the primary resonances will help a lot, you are sitting close, the bass will be the issue so do what you can, then adjust both the seating and speaker positions.

Finally make sure that your record player is properly supported, whichever one you use. This is important in any system but absolutely critical in such a small room.

It's interesting sugessting moving nearer to the speakers. I feel I am close enough as is it. I have tried speaker placemement and believe I have them in the best position. I will try your sugestion. The main issue I have is my system doesn't sound very good at low volume and wondered if a better amp or speakers could change this.

This is a separate issue and probably not room related. You need to look at each issue separately.

Firstly the room, virtually a cube so all the primary resonance modes are the same, damping the room will help but best to avoid driving these modes if at all possible. This means getting both the speakers and the listening position as far away from boundaries as possible.

Good small speakers can be listened to up close, the soundstage will form behind the speakers if the positioning is correct, as I said forget convention, you can get better results by trying things differently.

Bear in mind that in a small room microphonic effects will be emphasised, so supporting the turntable will be pivotal. For the Rega, a wall shelf is probably best though the Thorens, with it's suspended sub-chassis will be better off on a light rigid table.

If the lack of quality persists, whatever you do to the setup, then the components are not good enough for your requirements, you may have to consider a new amp and speakers.

Thanks that's definately given me food for thought.
Hoping the Thorens will be a approvement over the Rega P1.

 

[davedotco]

With the TD150 setup is everything, if you do not know how to do it, try and find someone who does.

Depending on age, you will need it stripping down and rebuilding, try and replace the suspension springs, if you can, clean the motor and pully, clean the main bearing, new oil etc. Then obviously mount the cartridge correctly, nice and tight, properly alligned etc, get that right and you will end up with a very decent player.

The use of a suspended subchassis is excellent for minimising the effects of microphony, it works like a mechanical low pass filter so the only frequencies to get into the player and cause trouble are really in the sub bass. Easy enough to fix, just use a support that is light and rigid, an old Sound Organisation table for example, which will filter out the low frequencies so nothing gets through at all.

 

[keeper of the quays]

Would studio monitor speakers help? As they are designed for close up listening?

 

[davedotco]

Would studio monitor speakers help? As they are designed for close up listening?

In the pro world the term 'near field monitor' is code.

It actually means 'not loud enough to be used at a distance'.

Few if any such speakers are engineered to give a response that is flat in the near field, it is just terminology. Such speakers are used up close because they sound louder and the effects of the room, often with no or minimal treatment, is minimised.

Many speakers of this type will have bass 'shelving' which can help with room placement which I personally find very helpful, particularly in awkward rooms, you will need a 'proper' pre-amp though if you want to use vinyl.

 

[ID.]

Such speakers are used up close because they sound louder and the effects of the room, often with no or minimal treatment, is minimised.

Many speakers of this type will have bass 'shelving' which can help with room placement which I personally find very helpful, particularly in awkward rooms

This. As Dave mentioned earlier, you will still get a proper soundstage. e.g. I get a full soundstage sitting less than a metre away from my A7Xs at my desk even though they are only about a metre. I get less of a soundstage from my Genelecs in my living room, even though they are around 2 metres apart because my sitting position is 3 metres away. If I move closer to form the ideal triangle I can, of course, get a full soundstage pretty much stretching from the point of my peripheral vision on either side.

Not just with studio monitors. With my old passive setup I used to also prefer listening pretty much nearfield to maximise the soundstage in a small room and eliminate room interactions to a certain degree.

 

[Daz B]

With the TD150 setup is everything, if you do not know how to do it, try and find osomeone who does.

Depending on age, you will need it stripping down and rebuilding, try and replace the suspension springs, if you can, clean the motor and pully, clean the main bearing, new oil etc. Then obviously mount the cartridge correctly, nice and tight, properly alligned etc, get that right and you will end up with a very decent player.

The use of a suspended subchassis is excellent for minimising the effects of microphony, it works like a mechanical low pass filter so the only frequencies to get into the player and cause trouble are really in the sub bass. Easy enough to fix, just use a support that is light and rigid, an old Sound Organisation table for example, which will filter out the low frequencies so nothing gets through at all.

I have been reading a lot on setting up a Thorens TD 150 turntable on the vinyl engine website.
My Thorens in very good condition and has a nice bounce probably about 7 seconds. All is level and the TP 13a arm is in good condition.
What I intend to do is put on a new cartridge and see how it sounds before making changes.
What is best to use when cleaning the motor and pulley?

 

[davedotco]

With the TD150 setup is everything, if you do not know how to do it, try and find osomeone who does.

Depending on age, you will need it stripping down and rebuilding, try and replace the suspension springs, if you can, clean the motor and pully, clean the main bearing, new oil etc. Then obviously mount the cartridge correctly, nice and tight, properly alligned etc, get that right and you will end up with a very decent player.

The use of a suspended subchassis is excellent for minimising the effects of microphony, it works like a mechanical low pass filter so the only frequencies to get into the player and cause trouble are really in the sub bass. Easy enough to fix, just use a support that is light and rigid, an old Sound Organisation table for example, which will filter out the low frequencies so nothing gets through at all.

I have been reading a lot on setting up a Thorens TD 150 turntable on the vinyl engine website. My Thorens in very good condition and has a nice bounce probably about 7 seconds. All is level and the TP 13a arm is in good condition. What I intend to do is put on a new cartridge and see how it sounds before making changes. What is best to use when cleaning the motor and pulley?

You need to clean the pulley and the subplatter where the belt males contact. Iso-propyl alcohol is what you need. Try and get a new belt and probably a felt mat too.

The other issue with the motor is hair and fluff getting tangled around the spindle, try and remove it all if you can, a bit awkward if you are not planning to remove the motor.

Fitting the cartridge is made easier by the detachable headshell but beware, the threaded ferrules are easily stripped so tight, but not too tight. Alignment is a bit of a pain too if I recall correctly, still plenty of help online.

Three more things,

Support, support, support.

 

[matthewpiano]

One thing is for sure, the Thorens TD150 is a much better deck than a Rega RP1 or RP3. Get the set-up right, and you'd have to spend a small fortune to match it. Beautiful turntables. I'll always regret selling mine, and I aim to have another when I have the money and the right example comes up.

 

[davedotco]

One thing is for sure, the Thorens TD150 is a much better deck than a Rega RP1 or RP3. Get the set-up right, and you'd have to spend a small fortune to match it. Beautiful turntables. I'll always regret selling mine, and I aim to have another when I have the money and the right example comes up.

A player I would really like to get my hands on is an early 80's LP12 Basik. Ideally a 1982 LP12 with the Nirvana and Valhalla upgrades but nothing more. (Virtually a TD150 in drag.)

Stick with the LVV Basic arm but fit a good modern mm cartridge. When properly set up it was a very stable and consistent performer and not at all expensive.

At the time, even when fitted with the Basik cartridge (AT93), it was a cracking player for the money. I know I go on about this a lot, but our demonstrator took on all comers in a comparitive dem and won every time, sometimes embarrasingly so.

Difficult to compare across a generation, but I think that setup would surprise a few even today.

 

[Daz B]

With the TD150 setup is everything, if you do not know how to do it, try and find osomeone who does.

Depending on age, you will need it stripping down and rebuilding, try and replace the suspension springs, if you can, clean the motor and pully, clean the main bearing, new oil etc. Then obviously mount the cartridge correctly, nice and tight, properly alligned etc, get that right and you will end up with a very decent player.

The use of a suspended subchassis is excellent for minimising the effects of microphony, it works like a mechanical low pass filter so the only frequencies to get into the player and cause trouble are really in the sub bass. Easy enough to fix, just use a support that is light and rigid, an old Sound Organisation table for example, which will filter out the low frequencies so nothing gets through at all.

I have been reading a lot on setting up a Thorens TD 150 turntable on the vinyl engine website. My Thorens in very good condition and has a nice bounce probably about 7 seconds. All is level and the TP 13a arm is in good condition. What I intend to do is put on a new cartridge and see how it sounds before making changes. What is best to use when cleaning the motor and pulley?

You need to clean the pulley and the subplatter where the belt males contact. Iso-propyl alcohol is what you need. Try and get a new belt and probably a felt mat too.

The other issue with the motor is hair and fluff getting tangled around the spindle, try and remove it all if you can, a bit awkward if you are not planning to remove the motor.

Fitting the cartridge is made easier by the detachable headshell but beware, the threaded ferrules are easily stripped so tight, but not too tight. Alignment is a bit of a pain too if I recall correctly, still plenty of help online.

Three more things,

Support, support, support.

I currently have my Rega on a hifi rack with glass shelves.
I intend to have my Thorens on the same rack.

 

[Daz B]

Really looking forward to getting the Thorens up and running. Just got to decide what cartridge to get.
Can't decide between a Nagaoka mp110 or a Audio Technica at440mlb.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

I would be tempted to go down the headphones route, and only upgrade your speakers if you move to a larger room.

+1

Get a dedicated headphone amp and some really good cans.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

I currently have my Rega on a hifi rack with glass shelves. I intend to have my Thorens on the same rack.

A dedicated shelf, or at least a solid wood or marble plinth (see your local tombstone seller) would be better. Mount either on spikes or sorbothane blocks, halved squash balls at a push.

 

[davedotco]

I currently have my Rega on a hifi rack with glass shelves. I intend to have my Thorens on the same rack.

A dedicated shelf, or at least a solid wood or marble plinth (see your local tombstone seller) would be better. Mount either on spikes or sorbothane blocks, halved squash balls at a push.

Putting the Thorens on top of a rack with the rest of your equipment is not the greatest idea. As I said earlier, the support needs to be low mass so as to not pass bass fequencies. The higher the mass, the more bass is transmitted which will incrementally affect the sound quality.

Glass shelves can be hit or miss too, more often than not they give the sound a somewhat brittle, fractured quality but that said, sometimes this is not the case. The Mana Reference table being a case in point, the best turntable support I have ever heard/used.

For the same reasons, mounting the player on any kind of heavy shelf or plinth, whatever the support, will adversely affect the sound quality, if you are not, or can not use a dedicated table then a wall shelf is the best bet. A simple 'spur' type support with a turntable sized shelf of 12-15mm chipboard will work, the shelf simply resting on the spurs, not screwed or fixed in any way.

If the player has to sit on the top of the rack, then some kind of spiked sub table will help, depending on the rack in question, not ideal but better than just placing the player on top.