Blind Test

Native_bon

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So yes cables. Why is it that cables are always put under the spot light of ABX Blind testing?... If you don't get this done, then some how you wasting your money, & any difference you hear is just in your head. If this is the case, should this not be the same asked for every other Hifi product we buy. All things being equal. We all know ABX testing has been done on Hifi boxes, but why does the call for blind testing not come up as often as it does with cables. Does marketing not affect boxes as much as it affects cables?

If a ABX Blind test is carried out (all things being equal) would you be able to successfully determine which source sounds better all the time, or which Boxes are more expensive all the time? To what extent does expectation bias apply to hifi boxes? How do we judge in a blind test, which boxes sounds best to us to get a conclusive or inconclusive result. If this is the case with cables, should we not go into a shop buying HIfi boxes by blind testing within a price range?

I understand the need for the right cosmetic finish for whatever is being bought, but these can be determined before the test.

Cheers. *drinks*
 

TrevC

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Native_bon said:
So yes cables. Why is it that cables are always put under the spot light of ABX Blind testing?... If you don't get this done, then some how you wasting your money, & any difference you hear is just in your head. If this is the case, should this not be the same asked for every other Hifi product we buy. All things being equal. We all know ABX testing has been done on Hifi boxes, but why does the call for blind testing not come up as often as it does with cables. Does marketing not affect boxes as much as it affects cables?

If a ABX Blind test is carried out (all things being equal) would you be able to successfully determine which source sounds better all the time, or which Boxes are more expensive all the time? To what extent does expectation bias apply to hifi boxes? How do we judge in a blind test, which boxes sounds best to us to get a conclusive or inconclusive result. If this is the case with cables, should we not go into a shop buying HIfi boxes by blind testing within a price range?

I understand the need for the right cosmetic finish for whatever is being bought, but these can be determined before the test.

Cheers. *drinks*

Cables, meh. I know they don't sound different. I would like something like a blind test of a Yamaha amp versus an Electrocompaniet of similar spec.
 

Gaz37

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There is no point in blind testing anything, however scrupulously the test may be carried out there are those who will rubbish the result because
A) It doesn't match their opinion
B)They have wasted a lot of money but won't admit it.
C)It doesn't matter what the test says they can hear a difference or improvement
 

stefanom

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TrevC said:
Native_bon said:
So yes cables. Why is it that cables are always put under the spot light of ABX Blind testing?... If you don't get this done, then some how you wasting your money, & any difference you hear is just in your head. If this is the case, should this not be the same asked for every other Hifi product we buy. All things being equal. We all know ABX testing has been done on Hifi boxes, but why does the call for blind testing not come up as often as it does with cables. Does marketing not affect boxes as much as it affects cables?

If a ABX Blind test is carried out (all things being equal) would you be able to successfully determine which source sounds better all the time, or which Boxes are more expensive all the time? To what extent does expectation bias apply to hifi boxes? How do we judge in a blind test, which boxes sounds best to us to get a conclusive or inconclusive result. If this is the case with cables, should we not go into a shop buying HIfi boxes by blind testing within a price range?

I understand the need for the right cosmetic finish for whatever is being bought, but these can be determined before the test.

Cheers. *drinks*

Cables, meh. I know they don't sound different. I would like something like a blind test of a Yamaha amp versus an Electrocompaniet of similar spec.

You don't know jack **** if cables sound different or not. I suggest you stop hijacking every thread on this forum.
 

davedotco

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steve_1979 said:
Native_bon said:
...would you be able to successfully determine which source sounds better

This is a very common misconception. An ABX test isn't for deciding what sounds best. Whether something sound good or bad is not the point.

An ABX only proves whether or not the two things being tested sound totally identical. An ABX is basically only used to check if you can hear any difference at all.

It is simply another example of how uninformed most hi-fi enthusiasts are.

As you say, an ABX test is quite specific, it plays you Component A, then Component B, then Component X. All you have to do is decide whether Component X is Component A or Component B. That is all.

A conventional AB test can be phrased so that you simply state your preference, ie do you prefer the setup using Component A or Component B, simple.

For such tests to have any validity, the levels need to be matched and the testing done blind, ideally double blind. In the real world this is rarely necessary. In the early (Martin Colloms) HiFi Choice speaker tests, it was immediatelty apparent that the tests needed to be done in this way.

It was not rigorous, listeners often knew the speakers present in the group, though not the ones actually playing, and spl measurement was pretty basic, yet everyone present, myself included, were astonished at how difficult it was to distinguish between the speakers, even speakers we knew well and held in very high regard were difficult to identify.

And bear in mind we are talking about speakers here, the things that make the biggest difference...!
 

steve_1979

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Native_bon said:
...would you be able to successfully determine which source sounds better

This is a very common misconception. An ABX test isn't for deciding what sounds best. Whether something sound good or bad is not the point.

An ABX only proves whether or not the two things being tested sound totally identical. An ABX is basically only used to check if you can hear any difference at all.
 

ID.

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steve_1979 said:
An ABX is basically only used to check if you can hear any difference[/u] at all.

This. There may be differences that are measurable but not audible or not audible enough for a listener to consistently correctly identify.

Blind testing is often proposed for digital sources and amplifiers too (with volume matching).

Youd be surprising by how some of those massive differences that people talk about seem to disappear or become surprisingly hard to identify.
 

chris_bates1974

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What I struggle with is why people who are happy with cheap cables have such a problem with people who would spend a very large sum on some. Let them get on with it.

however, what I have a bigger problem with, is when people who are spending thousands try and imply that theirs is the correct solution, and that others should stop doing what they are doing and jump on the expensive cable bandwagon.

if someone says they hear a difference, and want to buy something, good for them. Personally, I don't think I'd ever hear a difference in speaker cables, but that doesn't make me right, it just makes me me.
 

hg

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ID. said:
steve_1979 said:
An ABX is basically only used to check if you can hear any difference at all.

That is not quite right. It tests if one can distinguish components from the sound they emit. This is not the same as a person hearing a difference. For example, if a person has trained themselves to hear different sounds with two different cables they are likely to hear one or other of these different sounds in a blind test when they know one or the other of the cables is being used. But if the difference in sound emitted is below the audibility threshold then they will fail to correctly identify the cables. It is an important distinction because people may genuinely hear a different sound with different components even when the sound emitted is not distinguishable in a blind test. The perception of sound by the brain involves more than just the sound hitting our ears.
 

davedotco

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muljao said:
Does this imply that most gear is similar or at least so to a price?

I have said this many times, but it needs repeating.

It is quite astonishing how many 'clear and obvious', night and day', etc, etc differences simply disappear when levels are matched and the listening done blind.

There is no need to go to the lengths demanded by scientific rigour for such tests to be performed by a group of enthusiasts, just a simple test where components are swapped, levels matched but with the listener unaware of which component is being listened to.

The results are invariably eye opening for those participating, astonishingly so in some cases, if anyone is considering another get together or 'bake off', this would make for an entertaining day...*dirol*
 

drummerman

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'Blind tests' ...

Honestly, IMHO They are as pointless as any current Labour Manifesto.

No one listens 'blind' to hifi nor do they eat food that way.

We have senses, use them.

If your eyes help your ears decide ... do so :)

I like bake offs but honestly would have no interest in a 'blind' 'AB ...' whatever shoot out.

Furthermore, (imho) cable differences are probably small enough to be undetectable in an unfamiliar environment with an unfamiliar system, especially so if stress levels are higher because it is a 'test', because of travelling to the venue or any other reason.

That's not to say they (differences) are not there but you really need to do this in your home when you feel relaxed which also means probably on your own.

This whole thing about blind testing, 'if all else being equal' etc etc is pretty pointless because things are rarely, perhaps never equal.

If you can't hear (or see!) any difference, great, save your money but don't tell me it's not there or relevant (to me).
As a side note, I have upmost respect for Paul Miller of HifiNews. A very clever bloke. He can hear differences (cables) and he certainly can measure!

Moan over.

Happy weekend all :) xx
 

davedotco

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I am not suggesting that anyone should use a blind test to choose their system, just that taking part in such a test will open your eyes to the realities of what we can and what we do hear.

Everyone interacts with their system on a personal and unique level and it is this interaction that determines whether the setup is right for one individual or another.
 

Native_bon

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ABX is trying to found if you can determine which from which.Does sound quality not count as different. I think you guys should be politicians. My point here is that cables sound different but not enough to detect in a blind test just like it will be in the case of hifi boxes.
 

davedotco

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Native_bon said:
ABX is trying to found out if you can hear differences in sound. Does quality not count as different. I think you guys should be politicians. My point here is that cables sound different but not enough to detect in a blind test just like it will be in the case of hifi boxes.

Read the earlier post about ABX testing, the methodology is clearly explained.

If, as you claim, cables do sound different, how do you know (without testing)?

Sighted tests are useless, expectation bias rules that out from the beginning, so how do you propose that we test cables (or 'hifi boxes' for that matter)?
 

TrevC

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stefanom said:
TrevC said:
Native_bon said:
So yes cables. Why is it that cables are always put under the spot light of ABX Blind testing?... If you don't get this done, then some how you wasting your money, & any difference you hear is just in your head. If this is the case, should this not be the same asked for every other Hifi product we buy. All things being equal. We all know ABX testing has been done on Hifi boxes, but why does the call for blind testing not come up as often as it does with cables. Does marketing not affect boxes as much as it affects cables?

If a ABX Blind test is carried out (all things being equal) would you be able to successfully determine which source sounds better all the time, or which Boxes are more expensive all the time? To what extent does expectation bias apply to hifi boxes? How do we judge in a blind test, which boxes sounds best to us to get a conclusive or inconclusive result. If this is the case with cables, should we not go into a shop buying HIfi boxes by blind testing within a price range?

I understand the need for the right cosmetic finish for whatever is being bought, but these can be determined before the test.

Cheers. *drinks*

Cables, meh. I know they don't sound different. I would like something like a blind test of a Yamaha amp versus an Electrocompaniet of similar spec.

You don't know jack **** if cables sound different or not. I suggest you stop hijacking every thread on this forum.

Ah but I do know, champ. :O)
 

hg

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Native_bon said:
ABX is trying to found if you can determine which from which.Does sound quality not count as different. I think you guys should be politicians. My point here is that cables sound different but not enough to detect in a blind test just like it will be in the case of hifi boxes.

Cables do sound different for many people but I suspect not for the reasons you believe. The different sounds of a cable can also be present in a blind test which may confuse some cable-bashers. Here is a very rare example of a cable believer having the grace to honestly report what happened in a cable blind test.
 

Native_bon

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davedotco said:
Native_bon said:
ABX is trying to found out if you can hear differences in sound. Does quality not count as different. I think you guys should be politicians. My point here is that cables sound different but not enough to detect in a blind test just like it will be in the case of hifi boxes.

Read the earlier post about ABX testing, the methodology is clearly explained.

If, as you claim, cables do sound different, how do you know (without testing)?

Sighted tests are useless, expectation bias rules that out from the beginning, so how do you propose that we test cables (or 'hifi boxes' for that matter)?
OK stand corrected. AB test. BBC once show a program to show that seeing and hearing are very much interrelated.A blind person used their hearing to see. If this is the case there may be a reason why people are not able to determine sound without sight. Just as much you have no prove to determine if sight is needed to establish little changes in sound.
 

davedotco

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The whole sight/sound thing is very well researched and about as well proven as any subjective matter can be. This is also very much the case with expectation bias/placebo effect, plenty of research done in the medical and other fields show the scale and inportance of this phenomina. To suggest that this has no effect on hi-fi listening is absurd.

The crazy thing about these effects is that, even when you know all about them and understand that what you are hearing is not 'real', you hear them anyway.

One of the simplest and effective demonstrations of the variability of human hearing is here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0
 

Native_bon

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davedotco said:
The whole sight/sound thing is very well researched and about as well proven as any subjective matter can be. This is also very much the case with expectation bias/placebo effect, plenty of research done in the medical and other fields show the scale and inportance of this phenomina. To suggest that this has no effect on hi-fi listening is absurd.

The crazy thing about these effects is that, even when you know all about them and understand that what you are hearing is not 'real', you hear them anyway.

One of the simplest and effective demonstrations of the variability of human hearing is here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0
Seen that many a times. Well don,t think this video quite helps your argument. You need sight and sound to get the effect. But thanks mate. Smiles.
 

davedotco

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It is just one of many demonstrations that show how sight is by far the most dominant of our senses, comparing hi-fi in sighted tests is flawed simply because what we see overwhelms what we hear and there is nothing we can do about it.

The science is pretty solid on this, we can not ignore it because we are 'hi-fi enthusiasts', just as we can not ignore the effects of expectation/placebo effects.

Personally I still, mostly, evaluate equipment in the normal way, by listening but having been around this particular block enough times to undestand that my reactions and preferences are not made purely on objective sound quality.
 

drummerman

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davedotco said:
It is just one of many demonstrations that show how sight is by far the most dominant of our senses, comparing hi-fi in sighted tests is flawed simply because what we see overwhelms what we hear and there is nothing we can do about it.

The science is pretty solid on this, we can not ignore it because we are 'hi-fi enthusiasts', just as we can not ignore the effects of expectation/placebo effects.

Personally I still, mostly, evaluate equipment in the normal way, by listening but having been around this particular block enough times to undestand that my reactions and preferences are not made purely on objective sound quality.

Exactly. That is why I use these sexy looking power cables.

Goooorgeous :)
 

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