Amazon Fire Stick 4K Max

reginaldperrin

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Interesting that there are lots of shots of the reviewer holding the Fire Stick in what appears to be their bathroom. I wrapped the first Fire Stick I bought in cling-film and tried having a shower with it a few years back; needless to say, that didn't end well. Be good to know the IP rating of this new model as, like many others, I'm a fan of streaming whilst steaming in the tub!
 

Arron

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Sound out is digital, therefore the quality of the sound will be determined by the connected equipment NOT the stick.

Bill
Now explain why that might be wrong. Because it is wrong. The exact same digital signal will give different sound from one device to another. Audio is not IT :(
 

abacus

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Now explain why that might be wrong. Because it is wrong. The exact same digital signal will give different sound from one device to another. Audio is not IT :(

Digital is digital so the sound will be determined by the external DAC, NOT the unit feeding it.
What I suspect you mean is that different apps on the unit sound different, this however has nothing to do with the unit but is down to the manufacture of the app.

Bill
 

Arron

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Digital is digital so the sound will be determined by the external DAC, NOT the unit feeding it.
What I suspect you mean is that different apps on the unit sound different, this however has nothing to do with the unit but is down to the manufacture of the app.

Bill
Digital is only digital in concept. The reality is analogue circuits are used to pass a digital signal. And all analogue circuits make noise. The upshot is two different devices can send exactly the same ones and zeros but sound different. Because the DAC will not only receive the ones and zeros but also circuit noise, jitter, etc. which can get passed to the amp.

This is the same reason why e.g. different HDMI cables really can sound different — some of them are better at isolating circuit noise than others. (Though nothing will ever convince me to spend more than £20 on one.)

Can everyone hear it? No. But then some people can tell you what grape, region and even slope where others can only tell you the colour of the wine 🤷‍♂️:)
 

abacus

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Digital is only digital in concept. The reality is analogue circuits are used to pass a digital signal. And all analogue circuits make noise. The upshot is two different devices can send exactly the same ones and zeros but sound different. Because the DAC will not only receive the ones and zeros but also circuit noise, jitter, etc. which can get passed to the amp.

This is the same reason why e.g. different HDMI cables really can sound different — some of them are better at isolating circuit noise than others. (Though nothing will ever convince me to spend more than £20 on one.)

Can everyone hear it? No. But then some people can tell you what grape, region and even slope where others can only tell you the colour of the wine 🤷‍♂️:)

If you can provide verifiable evidence that a good quality cable can sound different to another one, (Digital or analogue) I will have another look, however as no one anywhere in the world has been able to do so , I am not holding my breath.

Bill
 

Arron

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If you can provide verifiable evidence that a good quality cable can sound different to another one, (Digital or analogue) I will have another look, however as no one anywhere in the world has been able to do so , I am not holding my breath.

Bill
Explanation by an audio engineer
View: https://youtu.be/ld68LCIRqQg

As he says, it has nothing to do with the ones and zeros, those stay the same.

Analogue cables are easy to prove, just swap a cable. Though there're definitely diminishing returns. My old speaker cable was fine — supplied by Mission and what they tuned the speakers with. Replaced it with reasonably priced oxygen-free copper and it was a huge improvement.

Again, not saying to spend a fortune but there plenty of people who can hear the difference. Even down to stuff as dumb (to me) as power cables. Thankfully, my ears are good but not that sensitive.
 

abacus

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Explanation by an audio engineer
View: https://youtu.be/ld68LCIRqQg

As he says, it has nothing to do with the ones and zeros, those stay the same.

Analogue cables are easy to prove, just swap a cable. Though there're definitely diminishing returns. My old speaker cable was fine — supplied by Mission and what they tuned the speakers with. Replaced it with reasonably priced oxygen-free copper and it was a huge improvement.

Again, not saying to spend a fortune but there plenty of people who can hear the difference. Even down to stuff as dumb (to me) as power cables. Thankfully, my ears are good but not that sensitive.

As I said no one anywhere in the world has been able to provide verifiable evidence that different quality cables affect the sound (Unless badly designed), however if you can provide verifiable evidence that they do then I will have another look. (A subjective opinion without scientific evidence (Level matched double blind test) is not a fact.
Regarding the video this has been known for decades, which is why any decent DAC isolates this problem making it irrelevant. (So long as there is a difference between on and off digital will work 100% correctly no matter what shape the waveform, plus its got to to be a pretty crap cable to cause even a small variance of the pulse)

Bill
 

Arron

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As I said no one anywhere in the world has been able to provide verifiable evidence that different quality cables affect the sound (Unless badly designed)
A different audio engineer demonstrates provides verifiable evidence.
View: https://youtu.be/DC0s6KqQz3g


Which I can confirm with my own experience with my own speaker cables. My amp and speakers sounded good. With upgraded speaker cable, they sounded much better. The cable wasn't any of the crazy expensive stuff, I just bought a 50m roll on Amazon for £50. Got some left over if you live anywhere close and want to try it.

however if you can provide verifiable evidence that they do then I will have another look.
Hope that's true because most of the cables-don't-make-a-difference crowd have made up their mind and nothing will change it. All without ever using their ears :(

Regarding the video this has been known for decades, which is why any decent DAC isolates this problem making it irrelevant.
Oh now it has to be a "decent" DAC? The ones and zeros might sound different on a DAC that isn't "decent"? :rolleyes:

You can't easily isolate the DAC from the noise, etc. coming down the cable because you obviously have to connect the DAC to the cable. Like I said, audio is not IT. The ones and zeros are only part of the equation. Because those ones and zeros are voltage spikes and drops not actual ones and zeros. The noise, etc. coming down the cable will not only go into the DAC but into the rest of the circuit and chassis. Also, DACs create circuit noise like any other component and fixing jitter/timing issues with the incoming ones and zeros will cause the DAC to make more circuit noise.

(So long as there is a difference between on and off digital will work 100% correctly no matter what shape the waveform, plus its got to to be a pretty crap cable to cause even a small variance of the pulse)
Nope, you're just repeating your same bad theory from before which the first video proved is wrong. This has nothing to do with the ones and zeros, they stay the same. This is to do with noise, jitter, timing, etc.

You can even hear the difference between devices using a simple test. Switch on two digital devices without playing any audio and turn your amp up to max volume. Now switch between the devices. On a cheap amp, all you'll hear is the amp or the mains hum but if your amp is reasonable quality, you'll hear the difference in the noise created by the two devices/cables. (The media PC I'm typing this on is noisier than my Apple TV for instance.)

Professionals can hear the difference. To a much lesser extent, so can an amateur like me. On the bright side, if you can't hear the difference, life will be much cheaper for you :)
 

abacus

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1. You need to get some basic technical knowledge (You old school science books will do) as you are mostly talking nonsense.
2. You will find that those who say there is NO difference, will have used their ears to see if there is a difference, and in most cases there is, however once you take out the variables (Level matched double blind test) all the differences disappear. (Just because you hear something doesn't mean its actually there, this applies to all the senses as all biological life forms suck (And are easily tricked) when it comes to this sort of stuff.)
3. The second video you posted (GR Research) is the biggest con ever (And disappointing as when it comes to designing and redesigning speakers GR Research is absolutely brilliant) as it uses radio frequency's which react completely differently to audio frequency's.
4. You have still not provided any verifiable evidence (Just your opinion) and so there is no reason to try it out again as the results will be the same.
To finish this conversation I will say what I always say, if you believe cables make a difference (Even when there is no verifiable evidence anywhere) then by all means buy what you like, but don't put over an opinion as fact.
BTW. Psychologically also plays a part (This is why you can hear a soundstage between a pair of speakers when in actual fact it does not exist) but that's a complete other discipline.

Bill
 
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Arron

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1. You need to get some basic technical knowledge (You old school science books will do) as you are mostly talking nonsense.
2. You will find that those who say there is NO difference, will have used their ears to see if there is a difference, and in most cases there is, however once you take out the variables (Level matched double blind test) all the differences disappear. (Just because you hear something doesn't mean its actually there, this applies to all the senses as all biological life forms suck (And are easily tricked) when it comes to this sort of stuff.)
3. The second video you posted (GR Research) is the biggest con ever (And disappointing as when it comes to designing and redesigning speakers GR Research is absolutely brilliant) as it uses radio frequency's which react completely differently to audio frequency's.
4. You have still not provided any verifiable evidence (Just your opinion) and so there is no reason to try it out again as the results will be the same.
To finish this conversation I will say what I always say, if you believe cables make a difference (Even when there is no verifiable evidence anywhere) then by all means buy what you like, but don't put over an opinion as fact.
BTW. Psychologically also plays a part (This is why you can hear a soundstage between a pair of speakers when in actual fact it does not exist) but that's a complete other discipline.

Bill
Oooh, so when I show you actual evidence you switch to personal attacks... Classy :p

1. My father wrote several books on electronics and radio. I grew up with the constant smell of solder around the house.
2. Some people only hear the music, others hear the music+equipment. My father could always hear the two -- as could several friends of mine. In my case, being able to hear the equipment took training and I couldn't hear both until I was in my mid 40s. Just like learning to taste wine, life was much cheaper beforehand.
3. The GR Research vid disproved your contention that all cables are the same and proved cables have different properties.
4. I provided evidence given by professional audio engineers but you refuse to accept it. If I had to guess, no amount of evidence would change your opinion. If you want to have a non-theistic religion, that's fine. Just don't expect others to bow to it.

BTW, people who can hear a soundstage on a poorly set up system are effectively having auditory hallucinations but, in a properly set up system, anyone can hear a soundstage -- no hallucinations needed. As someone who spent much of the 90s studying clinical psychology (but eventually decided against going into practice), suspect I'm reasonably qualified on that subject. If a system is properly set up and you sit in the sweet spot, the following video will sound like 7 speakers not 2. (Right-click to put it on a loop and use it to tune the position, toe-in and phase of the speakers.)
View: https://youtu.be/N02Y7vaVDNo


Again, the basic thing comes down to, if you can't hear the difference, who cares? But there are people who can.
 

abacus

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Where did I make a personal attack, all my comments are from fact and experience.

1. I was doing that when I was at school, I have always been one to take things apart to see how they work (And of course I was working with electronics for over 30yrs in my job) to get a fuller understanding.
2. I could tell what was what in my teens, plus I always make sure I go out to watch live bands so that I know what real music and instruments sound like.
3. Nope, it just proves that radio waves have different propagation to audio frequency's and using them to prove something that is not relevant to the audio spectrum is a con. (This is why I said I am extremely disappointed that Danny put out such a video as that is not what GR Research is about)
4. Paul of PS audio has some great videos, although I do disagree with some of them , (This is common between engineers) however the one you posted is good, but unfortunately you have misunderstood most of what he said, hence the reason I mentioned to do a bit of basic research so that you can fully grasp what he is saying. (Unfortunately describing electrical/electronic properties to a layman doesn't always work as you would wish ( I know, as when I was teaching newbies into the trade I had to vary things depending on what knowledge they had)
In a stereo system the only sounds you here are from the speakers and room reflections , however due to the way the brain/ear works, it creates an illusion of a soundstage, but if you walk to that part of the soundstage it disappears as it was never there in the first place, however if you do this with a live band then the soundstage remains no matter where you are , as its actually there.
As I said in my previous post anyone can hear a difference, however biological life forms are easily fooled into hearing (Seeing, feeling smelling) something that is not there, which is why I always make sure that when I do hear a difference, I make sure that anything that could be fooling my senses is removed, and in 100% of cases the differences disappear. (That is the only way to make sure that what you are hearing is real and not imaginary)
Anyway time to put this to bed as it is going nowhere.

Bill
 
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Arron

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Where did I make a personal attack, all my comments are from fact and experience.

"You need to get some basic technical knowledge (You old school science books will do) as you are mostly talking nonsense." -- say that to pretty much anyone else and it would be a personal attack. Saying it to me is just funny.

1. I was doing that when I was at school, I have always been one to take things apart to see how they work (And of course I was working with electronics for over 30yrs in my job) to get a fuller understanding.
2. I could tell what was what in my teens, plus I always make sure I go out to watch live bands so that I know what real music and instruments sound like.
3. Nope, it just proves that radio waves have different propagation to audio frequency's and using them to prove something that is not relevant to the audio spectrum is a con. (This is why I said I am extremely disappointed that Danny put out such a video as that is not what GR Research is about)
4. Paul of PS audio has some great videos, although I do disagree with some of them , (This is common between engineers) however the one you posted is good, but unfortunately you have misunderstood most of what he said, hence the reason I mentioned to do a bit of basic research so that you can fully grasp what he is saying. (Unfortunately describing electrical/electronic properties to a layman doesn't always work as you would wish ( I know, as when I was teaching newbies into the trade I had to vary things depending on what knowledge they had)
In a stereo system the only sounds you here are from the speakers and room reflections , however due to the way the brain/ear works, it creates an illusion of a soundstage, but if you walk to that part of the soundstage it disappears as it was never there in the first place, however if you do this with a live band then the soundstage remains no matter where you are , as its actually there.
As I said in my previous post anyone can hear a difference, however biological life forms are easily fooled into hearing (Seeing, feeling smelling) something that is not there, which is why I always make sure that when I do hear a difference, I make sure that anything that could be fooling my senses is removed, and in 100% of cases the differences disappear. (That is the only way to make sure that what you are hearing is real and not imaginary)
Anyway time to put this to bed as it is going nowhere.

Bill

1. Happy to believe you're great with electronics. Audio electronics... not so much.
2. Like I said, some people hear the music and some hear the music+electronics. As an extreme example, think of those kids who get a kick from hearing their favourite song through a crappy speaker on their phone. They're not hearing the phone's speaker distorting like crazy, they're hearing their favourite song. Going in a different direction, there are people who can hear which specific model of microphone was used to record the vocals on a song.
3. Did Danny do an audio test? No. It was a demonstration those cables have different properties. If your *theory* was correct, each of those cables would have picked up the signal at roughly the same strength or the thicker cables would have been better antennae. But, as the saying goes: in theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice, they're not.
4. "unfortunately you have misunderstood most of what he said" -- there you go again. No, I understood it just fine. Not least because as a kid I used to put a transistor radio next to the ZX80 I built and do the equivalent of this:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSO2ofz4gD4


Not kidding about that soundstage/Stereo Imaging Test. After putting in the effort, when I put it on, the voice comes from exactly where he claims to be. Which is a little freaky on the off-stage left and off-stage right because there are walls there. With music, lead singers sound like they're in the room.

If there's anything psychological about it, it must be socially contagious because I've sat normies in the sweet spot and watched their jaw drop.
 

Klaus1121

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Sound out is digital, therefore the quality of the sound will be determined by the connected equipment NOT the stick.

Bill

It is about the stick sometimes, for example if would send Dolby Atmos with Dolby TrueHD which is lossless codec so would be much better than Dolby Digital Plus which is a lossy codec the least one is used by fire stick, so practically is not determined by the connected equipment entirely.

Okay this is purely hypothetical because there are no streaming services that support Dolby TrueHD outside kaleidescape which is expensive and would need a dedicated player and storage.

Compared with Chromecast it doesn't do a good job on dialogue but is better in action scenes and deeper tones, just to compare with something on almost the same level.

So practically FireTV Stick use android, https://developer.amazon.com/docs/f...-dolby-end-points-and-private-listening-modes

There are multiple ways for a application to integrate Dolby, so depending on the approach and the audio track that is used, https://developer.amazon.com/docs/fire-tv/dolby-integration-guidelines.html#audiotrack-overview.

The sound can be transmitted digitally if is not integrated properly would not be a good sound indiferently of the equipment used.

Nobody buy a fireTV and then buy a 6000$ AV receiver+ 4000$ speakers to test it that would be stupid anyway.

Any soundbar between 300-600$ would be enough for this stick or anything that's called streaming service or device, anything else would not make a f difference anyway. The least one would provide the best Dolby Atmos this stick can provide, anything more expensive than that would be useless.
 

AlastairB

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No Dolby Atmos on Disney App.
I bought one of these to replace my 4K "Ultra" Firestick, which delivers Dolby Atmos from the Disney app. The "Max" Disney app did not supply Atmos, so is going straght back to Amazon.

It's very amateurish that the WhatHiFi review doesn't mention this, at all. Surely Atmos is a major audio consideration?

I think less of WhatHiFi.
 

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