A Sound Experience - Amp Auditions Today

ESP2009

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Feb 16, 2009
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Right this is the third or fourth time of trying to post this in the last ten minutes or so and now I'm getting narked. So, no fancy formats for album titles, etc, or anything other than the original import from MS Word. I'm fed up!

[size=3>[face=Verdana>[face=Verdana>[face=Verdana>I was greeted by Andrew and made to feel welcome with an offer of a drink whilst we sorted the kit out.[face=Verdana>[face=Verdana>
 
Good and interesting write-up. I have a similar model marantz, the KI, which I admittedly dont use often but can understand why you like it. I perhaps would'nt compare it with some of the better modern amplifiers I've heard, especially around the price you've auditioned but whether they justify the huge extra expense is another matter. It has a lot to do with how seriously you take your hobby, not least financially.

But I think it's relevant to hear these elevated products in the context of matched system. Old phrase but any link is only as good as the rest of the chain.

I did'nt notice you mentioning the rest of the demo system/s, just worth bearing in mind. In any case, you came away feeling happy with what you have and that can only be a good thing.
 
well , having picked up a marantz pm6003 today im not surprised that your ki sig is able to hold its own against some pricey modern gear , very impressive little amp for the money , and beats the nad c326bee that i swapped for it hands down , if i ever do decide to upgrade in the future , the new , higher spec marantz amps will be top of my list if my current one is anything to go by
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Sounds like a really good experience, although the range on offer was a bit limited. I'm looking forward to your report on Wednesday, having just opted for the Leema Pulse amp myself. As I posted on another thread, it has completely reinvigorated my CD collection. I was listening to Stacey Kent the other night (if you like Melody Gardot, I'm sure you like SK too) and it sounded amazing - incredibly immediate and almost tactile. I hope you'll be similarly impressed by the Leema!
 
drummerman:

Good and interesting write-up. I have a similar model marantz, the KI, which I admittedly dont use often but can understand why you like it. I perhaps would'nt compare it with some of the better modern amplifiers I've heard, especially around the price you've auditioned but whether they justify the huge extra expense is another matter. It has a lot to do with how seriously you take your hobby, not least financially.

But I think it's relevant to hear these elevated products in the context of matched system. Old phrase but any link is only as good as the rest of the chain.

I did'nt notice you mentioning the rest of the demo system/s, just worth bearing in mind. In any case, you came away feeling happy with what you have and that can only be a good thing.

Thanks. My thoughts regarding the PM66SE KI Sig vs the three newer and more expensive models I heard yesterday are basically that:

1. The law of diminishing returns on your financial outlay definitely seemed self-evident.

2. For the money, the KI Sig was an absolute bargain.

3. However, as I think about it, what is the modern equivalent of £500 spent in the 1990s? I think the Marantz retailed for approx £500 back then, which was not cheap, but what would be the equivalent now? Is the Kandy K2, at almost £900, a close equivalent?

I am currently and finally in a fortunate financial position to be comfortable enough to consider spending what many would consider silly money on hi-fi, but the old me sounds a note of caution regarding value for money. One reason for considering a range of options.

I don't know if I misunderstood your comment, or you misunderstood my post, but basically what I did was take my Marantz CD63 KI Sig, KI Sig amp, DacMagic, Spendors and even the cabling from my system. Then all we did was swap the amps in and out. No other components were introduced. I absolutely take onboard the issue of matched items, but firstly I wanted to see if any amp can push my existing kit that bit further in terms of performance, and I am also quite confident that, based on various other comments, both the CDP and the speakers can easily cope with more elevated amplification than I already have.

Anyway, it's all very interesting.
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You should try an Arcam A38 too, some love it and some hate it, but it may just appeal to what you seem to be looking for.
 
Can't help thinking a Caspian would a better solution than a Kandy in
the £1500 stakes and I understand your thoughts about the Cyrus (having
had similar experiances with its presentaion) but, as has been
mentioned previously, I think the Leema/Naim audition you have lined up
on wednesday may be more to your liking if Cyrus/Roksan isn't.
Of
course the imminent arrival of new Marantz gear may tip the scales in
their favour since you are happy with their 'sound' and the last thing you want to do is buy something then hear the Marantz and....................******!
 
mitch65:
Can't help thinking a Caspian would a better solution than a Kandy in the £1500 stakes and I understand your thoughts about the Cyrus (having had similar experiances with its presentaion) but, as has been mentioned previously, I think the Leema/Naim audition you have lined up on wednesday may be more to your liking if Cyrus/Roksan isn'tI thought that too, as the shop in question, according to its web site anyway, has them. They also carry Primare, too, which might be worth a listen.
 
Ah, yes, choices and more choices. I see all kinds of names bandied around and wonder: "What does that sound like? Would it be a good match?" But actually getting to try them is not so easy. Even the Caspain and the Primare weren't so simple. Sound Academy doesn't have the Caspian readily available and the I30 is out of stock pending the new version. Apparently Primare don't follow the trend of others in keeping older models going at discounted prices whilst the new one comes on the market. I am told they run stocks down and do a pretty clean break.

So, based on experiences and advice thus far, I reckon I will give the Naim and Leema kit a listen on Wednesday. If nothing blows my socks off immediately, I will wait until the new Primare comes along, together with the Marantz range.

As I have previously stated, I am quite happy with the music I get now, but know I can achieve better. Listening to the Moon I-1 I now know this for a fact. However, given that the Marantz PM66SE KI Sig cost me under £150 and to get what I would call a significant improvement looks as though it may cost at least £1k, it does make me wonder whether I should just rest on my laurels or stick to the second-hand market. Trouble is, I am not as knowledgeable as I could be about what constitutes a classic bargain on the s/h market!

As for Arcam...based on my one experience of the Arcam sound, unless they vary, I find it too warm and laid-back. Maybe ideal for cosy winter evenings, but not necessarily to my taste. Am I being too narrow-minded? Would the rest of my system alter that sound? Why can't it be "seempuls"? How many question marks still remain inside this laptop?

Still, let's see what Wednesday brings, eh?
 
mitch65:Oh! Plenty of questions, just not enough bloody answers!
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Ooooooh, language Timothy!
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But you are right on the button. Taking up Max's thread: if I won a ton of money, one thing I would love to give some time to would be seeking out a great musical sound without paying silly money. Yesterday I was shown (and listened to) some beautiful B&W floorstanders retailing at just short of £6k, partnered with the Moon amp I auditioned together with equivalent Moon CDP. On the shopfloor they sounded great. Not ideal circumstances, but you could hear the potential. But £6k?!?!? And that's just the speakers! Lovely accuracy and control of strong bass notes, but are they really worth that much more? Well, this kind of topic has been covered elsewhere. But at least I have had the opportunity to sample the rarified air, even if it didn't include the full experience.
 
mitch65:ESP2009:

mitch65:Oh! Plenty of questions, just not enough bloody answers!
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Ooooooh, language Timothy!
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Sorry father

Now that would be forum news!
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Cue respirator and mask with black cloak...
 
Nice write up ESP2009, it's good to see the Marantz PM66Ki can hold it's own against some of today's amps,

I've got the PM66Ki Sig and CD63Ki Sig with a pair of Acoustic Energy Neo 3 floorstanders, to me the system sounds great, however im just wondering would i notice much improvement in adding a DAC?
 
Torres09: im just wondering would i notice much improvement in adding a DAC?

Good question. I think it depends on what you want to spend and how much you expect to get as a result. For me, having spent £220 on a DacMagic, the difference was noticeable but not what you might call earth-shattering. To be completely honest, I don't even recall the details of what I noticed at the time, but I think the DAC boosted things sufficently and gave me the extra flexibility in terms of connections to other items such as PC, BDP, etc, that I thought it was a worthwhile investment.

As ever, if you can, try to get yourself an audition, even if it is on a sale or return basis.
 
ESP2009:

Which leaves me with demos on Wednesday of Naim and Leema kit at Music Matters...

...And was postponed by one day by mutual agreement. But here you go:-

Today I was both disappointed and privileged. I only had one hour at lunch to audition some kit at Music Matters in Edgbaston. That was a pity as I could have easily spent all afternoon in the company of Barry and his rather tasty range of amplifiers. However, in this instance, the work-life balance had to reflect that I do have to earn a living in order to afford luxuries such as expensive hi-fi separates!

So, armed with the trusty Marantz KI Sig CDP, DacMagic and Spendors, we took a listen to what Naim and Leema would do with such bits 'n' bobs. This time I decided against taking my own amp due to time constraints and also getting a pretty good idea of how it compares with pricier kit at the weekend.

First on the stand was the Naim Nait 5i - very classy looks in my opinion: slimline and business-like with just a touch of stylish flair. But, I am sad to say, a complete let-down when partnered with my equipment! Referring to my hastily scribbled notes I read: "muffled sound" and "too bass heavy". It was if, in comparison with the sound I am accustomed to, someone had drawn and acoustic curtain across and then turned the equaliser to 'Boy Racer'. I turned to Barry very quickly and shook my head. He seemed to be incomplete agreement: Melody Gardot was not sounding her best! We decided not to belabour the point, but to move straight on to the next item on the list of contenders.

The Naim Nait XS looked almost identical but revealed a world of difference. Suddenly that curtain was lifted away. The sound was very much like that of the Marantz but I was pretty convinced I could detect greater weight and control to the sound. Although the bass might be a tad more powerful, it was powerful in a controlled and sensible way. However, I must say that even if it might be an improvement over the Marantz, it was not a marked one. A good sound; I liked it. Without the Marantz, I would certainly be willing to seriously consider the XS.

So what had the Leema Pulse to offer? Well now, this is where it gets interesting because Barry said the Leema Pulse I would be listening to next would be the Pulse 3, not only that, but probably the very model that would be on its way very shortly to What Hi-Fi to review! Wow! No pressure, then! Of course, that was where the privilege and the disappointment came in: I am one of the first few people in the UK to see or hear one out in the wild, but I would not be able to take it home to listen - doh!

Anyway, yours truly is not even going to begin to attempt to usurp the role of WHF and do a full review (well, let's face it; with less than half an hour to give it a listen, it is hardly fair!) Therefore, first impressions? Looks a bit strange. I was faced with the white version. Apparently, I am told, the design is based on surveys of what the ladies prefer...and that's something that doesn't look like hi-fi! Hmmm, not sure about that at all. Yes, it looks a modern piece of tech and really quite stylish, but personally I prefer black and I don't like my hi-fi to look anonymous - it should be proud of what it is!

The Pulse 3 adds extra functionality in that it features USB, plus I vaguely recall coaxial and digital inputs being listed. There's nothing obvious on t'interweb to refer to, so you will have to wait for details to be published. However, I was there to listen, even though I still found the white finish a bit hard to get past.

Ah, but spin a disc, turn it up to a decent volume (using push-button controls that run very incrementally from 1 to 250), close your eyes and you soon don't care if it is Mr Blobby pink and yellow spots! We threw at it a sequence of Melody Gardot, The Lens, Queen and then Rimsky-Korsakov's Sheherazade. I don't think I have yet heard any of them sound that good. There was an air of controlled precision about the sound coming out of my speakers. It was more restrained than the Naim XS but with a greater sense of space; it was almost as if the soundstage wanted to escape the room, pushing at the walls. There seemed a good balance of solid bass, pleasant mid-range and clear top-end. The XS seemed slightly sibilant by comparison. Not only that but on each of the tracks I heard new details previously lost to me. Even Queen's Innuendo gave up extra secrets - no mean feat. Instruments became more readily identifiable and located in front of me. Even those on Innuendo began to separate out. Not only that, but it sounded great at relatively low volume levels. Thinking back to the Moon I-1, at the same price point, I have to say the Pulse 3 is a clear winner. If I had the chance, I would take it home for a loan period, no question. I am well-impressed. The Pulse 3 achieved things that I had not expected, given what I had heard previously. I will be very surprised if WHF don't like it.

All too soon, the hour of demo was up (well, in truth it was a bit over!) and I packed my kit up and left for an afternoon in the office. But what's this? An extra box in the car? Ooooh, however did that happen? OK, truth be told, Barry did throw in a final contender: the Pulse 2. What can I say? As a discontinued and discounted model, and even though it's not black (yep, there was only the silver fascia version available), I listened and liked what I heard. For the price of an £850 swipe of my card (to ensure my honesty) I can give it a listen in the home environment. In fact, that is what I am doing now. Let's just say that the Pulse 3 takes what the 2 has and gives it a polish. The sound of the Pulse 2 sits very comfortably in my living room. Does it improve on the Marantz? Again, yes, but not significantly - it is more a subtle extra something here and there. Whereas, for just under £1500 the Pulse 3 makes some major extra headway.

All of which now leaves me with the question: what of the Primare? Sadly, I have not had time to open the boxes and examine what I have, let alone listen to them! They are going to have to wait until tomorrow. My time is just not all my own - I will have to be patient. It's past ten now and, much as I would like to give them a try, common sense dictates that I wait - it will be worth it, I'm sure. I have until 8.30pm. Meanwhile, I am going cross-eyed, so it's time to rest my weary eyes. G'night.
 
great post , that leema pulse 2 , going on ebay for £600 is sounding very tempting
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maxflinn:great post , that leema pulse 2 , going on ebay for £600 is sounding very tempting
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Oh Yus! If you like the Marantz sound, the Pulse 2 is a definite consideration. It seems to take the PM66SE KI Sig performance and refines it, extracting that bit more, even at low volumes. But, putting it into perspective, the Marantz can be purchased for under £150 whereas the Pulse 2 is probably going to be at least 4x that judging by what you say (or the 'cost' of the one I am trying at home). What price do you put on the extra performance? Or, to be more realistic, the s/h Marantz is 1990s vintage, whereas the Leema is rather younger and, arguably more likely to last longer into the future.

Sorry if I have led you into temptation.
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ESP2009, I think I've missed something somewhere, but on looking at you equipment again, and noticing I made a mistake - thought you had different speakers - it seems you have a nicely-balanced system, so why do you want to change it?

If it's an amp problem I wouldn't spend more than the £700 mark so the Leema would seem ideal. I suggested listening to the Primare in error I now realise: if you buy something at that level, then you should also upgrade the speakers, followed by the source, and so the whole upgrade spiral begins....
 
ESP2009:
maxflinn:great post , that leema pulse 2 , going on ebay for £600 is sounding very tempting
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Oh Yus! If you like the Marantz sound, the Pulse 2 is a definite consideration. It seems to take the PM66SE KI Sig performance and refines it, extracting that bit more, even at low volumes. But, putting it into perspective, the Marantz can be purchased for under £150 whereas the Pulse 2 is probably going to be at least 4x that judging by what you say (or the 'cost' of the one I am trying at home). What price do you put on the extra performance? Or, to be more realistic, the s/h Marantz is 1990s vintage, whereas the Leema is rather younger and, arguably more likely to last longer into the future.

Sorry if I have led you into temptation.
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it doesnt take much to lead me into av temptation ..
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...

no its just that i cant seem to recall anyone saying that after demoing a leema pulse they were not impressed , even the roksan kandy k2 divides opinion slightly , and yes i love the marantz sound , well , assuming marantz has a trademark sound , but i love what my 6003 sounds like anyway compared to my ex nad....

i wonder when the new marantz range of stereo amps is coming out ?

or perhaps i should look at getting an old one as you have esp , im assuming even though its much older it would be better than ive got ? hmmm , questions questions
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Tarquinh:

ESP2009, I think I've missed something somewhere, but on looking at you equipment again, and noticing I made a mistake - thought you had different speakers - it seems you have a nicely-balanced system, so why do you want to change it?

If it's an amp problem I wouldn't spend more than the £700 mark so the Leema would seem ideal. I suggested listening to the Primare in error I now realise: if you buy something at that level, then you should also upgrade the speakers, followed by the source, and so the whole upgrade spiral begins....

My lawyers will be in touch.
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However, in the meantime, I am looking forward to listening to the Primare I30 and Primare CD31 that I got from eBay at pretty much the price level you mention. Listening to the Pulse 2 last night, I know what you mean about it (although wait until you hear the Pulse 3 - laaaaaaaarverly) as it was producing lots of little extra details and touches that the PM66SE doesn't.

And, yes, I recognise that maybe I will be looking at new speakers at some point and then hopefully chop that spiral off (hmmmm, who am I kidding?)
 
igglebert:Excellent! Bet you like the Primare, very refined sound.

I am really looking forward to listening this evening. Although it is combined with a certain degree of angst - will I be disappointed? I didn't have as much time as I would have liked yesterday, so confined myself to introducing the Leema and enjoying a couple of random tracks before listening to the Rimsky-Korsakov in full. Very nice! Part of me now is reluctant to unbox the Primare kit: it's part tease, part apprehension. The build-up is part of the full experience.

Anyway, I hope that, between ferret-wrangling in Her absence, I will squeeze in some serious listening prior to the post 8pm ETA of the Sound Police.
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