90s Arcam, Marantz, Mission setup, time to upgrade??

[Dougal1331]

The 752s are excellent. Your CD player is excellent.

In my opinion, a NAD C370 or C350 would be a very good match. (As others have already mentioned.). Then in future keep your eye out for a C270 power amp. I used to own the C350/C270 combo, and still regret selling it. I used it to biamp just about every decent speaker Mission made in the 90s (bit of a Mission nut, sorry...) including 752s, and with the exception of the recent 781 (ceramic bass drivers), they all sounded stunning.

I'd recommend a bit of Van Damme Studio Blue 6mm speaker cable and some good interconnects too- Chord Crimson or Atlas Equator would do it- if you haven't already got decent cables, that is...

 

[Dougal1331]

Might even be worth re-capping the 752s. IIRC they use bipolar electrolytic capacitors, which do degrade over time.

I have recapped my speakers recently (albeit not Missions), and the overall improvement in detail and tone was quite profound.

EDIT Just re-read my post. I think that's the first time I've ever used the word 'profound' on an internet forum. :O

 

[BigH]

YEs there seem to be quite a few disappointed 6004 buyers, read the opinions under the review, also complaints of underpowered and users switching from old gear are underwhelmed, for me I would go for the Alpha 9, probably better built and last just as long. As for cables yes Van Damme would be my choice but try the OFC speaker cable which is even better than the Blue and costs about £4 per metre (2.5mm).

 

[Chrisjohnwright]

Ok so the update to he above is...

Have decided to keep the 752s, will prob get them recapped as suggested.

Have replaced the CD52 with CD63SE as the tray mechanism was clunky, wasn't expecting any noticeable difference but have to say think the 63 fractionally warmer.

So all that remains is the amp, am definitely going to replace the old Alpha 2, but the choice boils down to old or new. Alpha 9s are looking at c. £200 on eBay so the choice within the budget of around £250 is

Used Arcam Alpha 9

New Marantz 6004

New Yamaha AS500

What do you think?

thanks

 

[Pete68]

Used Arcam Alpha 9 (but not heard the Yamaha)

 

[ID.]

Used Arcam Alpha 9 (but not heard the Yamaha)

+1

Personally the Alpha 9 is clearly superior to the Marantz 6004, 7004 and 8004, and I suspect superior to the Yamaha. It may also depend on the sound you prefer. I found the Alpha 9 to have good detail and soundstage, with great separation. It's reputation is for being warm and laid back, but I had mine paired with a Rotel CD player and some speakers that were anything but laid back, and I got an impression of it being overly warm.

 

[the record spot]

Have decided to keep the 752s, will prob get them recapped as suggested.

If you're undecided on the amp still, try and clap hands - as a stop gap - on a Sansui AU-217. You find of them on the web, keep an eye out for a one in good condition (there's quite a few). Sound quality with th e752 is terrific. It's rated at 30wpc (the Mk2 is 40) but rated higher in tests. They turn up often on Ebay and you should pay around £40-80. Prices are climbing a little but a mint one is worth paying more for. The 317 and 417 are also worth seeking though they come up less often. The 717 is a monster, sounds great but needs more TLC usually.

 

[Dougal1331]

Glad you're planning on keeping the 752s.

If you decide to recap them, you can seek advice from a few places:

Falcon Acoustics are good, as are Wilmslow Audio and audiocomponents.co.uk. These guys will probably know what values you'd need without you having to open the speakers up to look...

If you live near any of them they could probably do the work for you- I went the DIY route- it's fiddly rather than difficult, but only took about half an hour all in.

I used the 400W Solen polypropylenes from Falcon Acoustics in my TDLs, which are only £3-5 each, depending on values. It's possible to spend a lot more on high-end capacitors, but I feel diminishing returns... As I have said before, the improvement was worth ten times the outlay. (Including P&P, cost for me was £12 per speaker, though the TDLs only use 3 caps per speaker).

I'm willing to offer any assistance I can if required!

All the best

Jon.

 

[Dougal1331]

-

 

[Chrisjohnwright]

Thanks Dougal, much appreciated, going to give the DIY route a go

 

[GMK]

That's twice in a matter of days now I've seen nod towards getting older speakers recapped. What should I be looking for to find a specialist? I'm not confident I wouldn't damage something if I tried the repair...

 

[Dougal1331]

Chuckles...

Yes I expect both mentions of re-capping were probably me!

There are companies which will do this work for you- as mentioned earlier in this thread. However, unless you live near one of them, postage and packing costs will add a lot to the overall cost.

I would say it's not really worth it unless the speakers are a good 10+ years old, and if higher-end they may well have decent caps anyway. Easy to pop the terminal block off and have a look- if you can see (usually) metallic blue 'AA' battery sized caps, they are probably electrolytic types and may benefit from upgrading to polypropylenes.

Anyone with recent or mid-to-high end speakers probably wouldn't notice much difference, but it's a great way of breathing some life into older speakers.

It isn't a particularly difficult task: pop the terminal/crossover board out, and jot down the cap values (inductors and resistors don't degrade, so no point changing those), order from your choice of supplier, and get the soldering iron out. The best advice I can offer (through practical experience), is label the drive unit wires, and replace the caps one at a time, on one board at a time- that way if you get confused you can compare to the original board to make sure you've put things in the right places...

Also, the operating voltage is not tremendously important- my TDLs used 50V bipolar electrolytics, I replaced them with 400V Solen PPs and no problem at all!

 

[GMK]

20 year old Ruark Talisman II's. Built like absolute tanks. I haven't seen an entry point into them

 

[jayallears]

Hi I am surprised no one has mentioned the biamping option. The Missions have 4 binding posts and the gains of biamping Arcam amps is enournous. Start off by getting an arcam 8 or 9 power amp and then later on get a 8 or 9 integrated if you need it.
Lastly consider a new dac as these have greatly improved or a second hand musical fidelity x 10 v3 buffer and power supply. Have a look on hifi wigwam site.

 

[Dougal1331]

Jayallears, that's a very good point!

 

[Chrisjohnwright]

So the latest iteration is:

Am keeping the 752s, have bought the new caps, just need to fit tthe the

CD62SE is in place and sounding good

Have an Arcam A85 integrated amp on the way, looking out for a P85 so i can bi amp.

Now the next bit is where I'm going to expose my lack of knowledge on DACs. As well as CDs I want to be able to play iTunes music from my iPad. I obviously need a DAC (Arcam rPac maybe?) but what's the best way to connect the iPad to the DAC without losing quality?

 

[Chrisjohnwright]

So the latest iteration is:

Am keeping the 752s, have bought the new caps, just need to fit tthe the

CD62SE is in place and sounding good

Have an Arcam A85 integrated amp on the way, looking out for a P85 so i can bi amp.

Now the next bit is where I'm going to expose my lack of knowledge on DACs. As well as CDs I want to be able to play iTunes music from my iPad. I obviously need a DAC (Arcam rPac maybe?) but what's the best way to connect the iPad to the DAC without losing quality?

 

[GMK]

Which caps did you go for and where did you get them from?

 

[Chrisjohnwright]

F&T Bipolar electrolytics - from www.audiocap.co.uk . V helpful there - email them, if not sure.

They advised some slightly better ones but were a lot bigger so more difficult to fit in, so stuck with these.

Chris

 

[GMK]

Thank you

Dougal1331 - Do you have an email address I could speak to you on?

 

[Dougal1331]

Well, although you've gone for electrolytics again, they look like good quality and should still give an improvement.

I know PP caps are much larger- luckily they have long leads which still reach, then I glue 'em down.

GMK- not sure I'm allowed to put my email in a post, but I think maybe if the mods are in a good mood, I could ask them nicely to forward it to you... I'll slap a post somewhere and see if I can sort it.

EDIT Have just scoured the House Rules twice, nothing regarding email addresses that I can see.

dougalmeister @ msn.com (obv. without spaces) Mods please remove if I'm wrong!

 

[Chrisjohnwright]

Thanks Dougal, should have thought about how to fit the PPs. Do you think the PPs would give a better result? Haven't fitted the electrolytics yet so for a small outlay would buy them if they're going to be better.

Thanks again

 

[Chrisjohnwright]

Thanks Dougal, should have thought about how to fit the PPs. Do you think the PPs would give a better result? Haven't fitted the electrolytics yet so for a small outlay would buy them if they're going to be better.

Thanks again

 

[Dougal1331]

IMO, Polyprops would be the better upgrade- in the case of my TDLs, they brought a significant dollop more detail and overall balance to the sound, with treble 'breathiness' and imaging much improved from before. But then again the original electrolytics were probably just about shot...

PP or MFP (metallised film polypropylene) caps tend to have tighter tolerances than electrolytics, and will often result in the speakers sounding better than when they were new. Also, they don't degrade like electrolytics so once it's done, it's done.

I would think that any difference you may hear by installing new electrolytics will depend entirely on what state the current ones are in. Changing to polyprops would, in my opinion, be the way to go- that way you're replacing like-for-better rather than like-for-like. Even if your current caps are still good, you will still notice an improvement.

I'm doing my Mission 780s this week so will report back... cheap, easy job though- a whole ONE 15mFd cap per crossover, although Mission had decided to glue the caps down in a little recess with the print obscured- I've had to remove them just to get the values! Then it will be the turn of my RTL G20s... I think I need psychiatric help. :O