We are stuck with cable . . . ?

[CJSF]

We see and have to use cables all the time, and the heated arguments that develop. We cand do with out them . . . new technology . . . wireless? but it aint so good they tell me?

So, we are stuck with cable, what type is up to the individual, however, what about all those bits and pieces on the crossover inside the speaker cabinet, resistors, capacitors, coils, all have there own 'wire/cable' . . . 'out of sit out of mind', and yet compared with speaker cable, they are making real changes to the signal?

Ever thought about, 'full range speaker/drivers'? Conect the speaker cable 'direct' to the speakers single drive unit, no crossover to interfear and away you go . . . Getting more garbage out of the way of the signal path has to be the way to go?

CJSF

 

[wilro15]

There is a new wireless technology called WISA which allows for high-def audio. Its still a bit rare but I have seen it used on some Bang & Olufsen systems.

As for what goes on inside the box - its probably best not to worry about it and just consider it a "black box", i.e. a closed system.

Full range speakers do exist (such as those by Eclipse) and can be really good, but with limitations.

 

[chebby]

As for what goes on inside the box - its probably best not to worry about it ...

I am guessing this is your first CJSF thread

 

[wilro15]

Oh, is this the guy who takes apart speakers and re-wires them?

 

[CJSF]

Oh, is this the guy who takes apart speakers and re-wires them?

Never rewired a speaker in my life . . . CJSF

 

[tazzo]

Wats wrong with re-wiring speakers if you have the knowledge and skills?

 

[Overdose]

Wats wrong with re-wiring speakers if you have the knowledge and skills?

I think the real question is why bother? Assuming they are not broken of course.

 

[CJSF]

You are all missing the point, 'we are stuck with cable' for true 'hifi SQ' . . . A little sideways thinking can give a whole new perspective on what goes between amp and speaker drive unit. Use a 'full range speaker/driver', the crosover, its active components and their potential colouration (affect on SQ) are eliminated? The amp is conected directly to the single full range speaker terminals, there is no crossover requirement. No large amount of power is usualy required as most full range drive units are high effiency.

Almost a no brainer?

CJSF

 

[davedotco]

You are all missing the point, 'we are stuck with cable' for true 'hifi SQ' . . . A little sideways thinking can give a whole new perspective on what goes between amp and speaker drive unit. Use a 'full range speaker/driver', the crosover, its active components and their potential colouration (affect on SQ) are eliminated? The amp is conected directly to the single full range speaker terminals, there is no crossover requirement. No large amount of power is usualy required as most full range drive units are high effiency.

Almost a no brainer?

CJSF

According to Wilmslow the Eikona VTLs are just 86db/w, hardly 'high efficiancy'.

Of course the advantages of connecting the drive units directly to the power amplifiers are well known, but having embraced that I wonder why you have not 'gone the whole hog' and looked at fully active designs.

All the advantages you mention above but with the added bonus of being able to use drive units purpose built for the frequency range required and driven only over the most linear section of their range. Resonances are better controlled and the ragged behaviour of all drivers at the extremes of their operating range can be reduced to inaudibility by high order electronic crossovers.

I understand that you see the Eikona VTL as a project, (I would love to be able to do something like that but do not have the workspace,) and a fun one at that, but take those ideas further and a fully active two or three way speaker is where you end up.

 

[CJSF]

You are all missing the point, 'we are stuck with cable' for true 'hifi SQ' . . . A little sideways thinking can give a whole new perspective on what goes between amp and speaker drive unit. Use a 'full range speaker/driver', the crosover, its active components and their potential colouration (affect on SQ) are eliminated? The amp is conected directly to the single full range speaker terminals, there is no crossover requirement. No large amount of power is usualy required as most full range drive units are high effiency.

Almost a no brainer?

CJSF

According to Wilmslow the Eikona VTLs are just 86db/w, hardly 'high efficiancy'.

Of course the advantages of connecting the drive units directly to the power amplifiers are well known, but having embraced that I wonder why you have not 'gone the whole hog' and looked at fully active designs.

All the advantages you mention above but with the added bonus of being able to use drive units purpose built for the frequency range required and driven only over the most linear section of their range. Resonances are better controlled and the ragged behaviour of all drivers at the extremes of their operating range can be reduced to inaudibility by high order electronic crossovers.

I understand that you see the Eikona VTL as a project, (I would love to be able to do something like that but do not have the workspace,) and a fun one at that, but take those ideas further and a fully active two or three way speaker is where you end up.

Yep points taken Dave, I did use the word 'usualy', indicating not always. I was aware of the 86db on the Eikona drive unit, I never do things the easy way . . . I am a valve man Dave, if you think about it, the 'full range' option is the rout a valve man will take.

The whole thing regarding speakers and the problems I have experianced with the PMC's has become a project. Taking advise, I have been pointed in the direction of my room as the problem? I have fiddle, pushed and pulled, the room is small at 12ft sq, and a bit clutered too, finding an extra 4 inches between the speakers has made a considerable differance. So its probably not the speakers, its me not wanting to get 'involved with the room'?

So, one is now into a project rather than fixing an issue. I like things like this, especialy working with wood, I have a 24ft shed, half full of junk, but reasonably well kited out, I make and fly RC model airplanes, have done for 60 years, so making a speaker cabinet is simply an extention of my modeling skills. The last thing I did for the hifi was make a TT shelf from an old cottage style open arm chair, I now have an 'old arm chair' screwed to the wall . . . *biggrin* I did post pictures on a thread a year or two back?

The next few months will be interesting, revamping the room, getting rid of the clutter that is my 'studdy', PC, desk, etc. The PC will become a lap top/iPad? so that I can do my computering from the sofa, that includes selecting music, which I curently have to go sit at the desk/PC.

A whole new world is opening for this 67 year old, an open mind is leading me in a direction I never even considerd four weeks ago . . . The computer side frightens me but the benefits and pleasure with the hifi will offset this. Getting the right help with the computer issues is the main problem?

CJSF

 

[BigH]

You are all missing the point, 'we are stuck with cable' for true 'hifi SQ' . . . A little sideways thinking can give a whole new perspective on what goes between amp and speaker drive unit. Use a 'full range speaker/driver', the crosover, its active components and their potential colouration (affect on SQ) are eliminated? The amp is conected directly to the single full range speaker terminals, there is no crossover requirement. No large amount of power is usualy required as most full range drive units are high effiency.

Almost a no brainer?

CJSF

Well I did recently read about single driver and there does seems to be problems, im sure maunfacturers use tweeters for a reason not just for show. The reviews I have seen have not been that great.

 

[davedotco]

You are all missing the point, 'we are stuck with cable' for true 'hifi SQ' . . . A little sideways thinking can give a whole new perspective on what goes between amp and speaker drive unit. Use a 'full range speaker/driver', the crosover, its active components and their potential colouration (affect on SQ) are eliminated? The amp is conected directly to the single full range speaker terminals, there is no crossover requirement. No large amount of power is usualy required as most full range drive units are high effiency.

Almost a no brainer?

CJSF

According to Wilmslow the Eikona VTLs are just 86db/w, hardly 'high efficiancy'.

Of course the advantages of connecting the drive units directly to the power amplifiers are well known, but having embraced that I wonder why you have not 'gone the whole hog' and looked at fully active designs.

All the advantages you mention above but with the added bonus of being able to use drive units purpose built for the frequency range required and driven only over the most linear section of their range. Resonances are better controlled and the ragged behaviour of all drivers at the extremes of their operating range can be reduced to inaudibility by high order electronic crossovers.

I understand that you see the Eikona VTL as a project, (I would love to be able to do something like that but do not have the workspace,) and a fun one at that, but take those ideas further and a fully active two or three way speaker is where you end up.

Yep points taken Dave, I did use the word 'usualy', indicating not always. I was aware of the 86db on the Eikona drive unit, I never do things the easy way . . . I am a valve man Dave, if you think about it, the 'full range' option is the rout a valve man will take.

The whole thing regarding speakers and the problems I have experianced with the PMC's has become a project. Taking advise, I have been pointed in the direction of my room as the problem? I have fiddle, pushed and pulled, the room is small at 12ft sq, and a bit clutered too, finding an extra 4 inches between the speakers has made a considerable differance. So its probably not the speakers, its me not wanting to get 'involved with the room'?

So, one is now into a project rather than fixing an issue. I like things like this, especialy working with wood, I have a 24ft shed, half full of junk, but reasonably well kited out, I make and fly RC model airplanes, have done for 60 years, so making a speaker cabinet is simply an extention of my modeling skills. The last thing I did for the hifi was make a TT shelf from an old cottage style open arm chair, I now have an 'old arm chair' screwed to the wall . . . *biggrin* I did post pictures on a thread a year or two back?

The next few months will be interesting, revamping the room, getting rid of the clutter that is my 'studdy', PC, desk, etc. The PC will become a lap top/iPad? so that I can do my computering from the sofa, that includes selecting music, which I curently have to go sit at the desk/PC.

A whole new world is opening for this 67 year old, an open mind is leading me in a direction I never even considerd four weeks ago . . . The computer side frightens me but the benefits and pleasure with the hifi will offset this. Getting the right help with the computer issues is the main problem?

CJSF

Of course if you want a really interesting project an active two way using valve amplification would be the way to go. I heard such a system way back, early 70's, studio setup of course, the electronic crossovers were built into the console and valve power amplifiers were built into racks in the wall below the soffit mounted main monitors, what fun.

I envy you your workshop facilities, I really have no space at all, I have always fancied a valve amp kit and enjoyed building my own speakers, all a long time ago i'm afraid.

Good luck, genuinely interested in how you get on......*drinks*

 

[andyjm]

You are all missing the point, 'we are stuck with cable' for true 'hifi SQ' . . . A little sideways thinking can give a whole new perspective on what goes between amp and speaker drive unit. Use a 'full range speaker/driver', the crosover, its active components and their potential colouration (affect on SQ) are eliminated? The amp is conected directly to the single full range speaker terminals, there is no crossover requirement. No large amount of power is usualy required as most full range drive units are high effiency.

Almost a no brainer?

CJSF

According to Wilmslow the Eikona VTLs are just 86db/w, hardly 'high efficiancy'.

Of course the advantages of connecting the drive units directly to the power amplifiers are well known, but having embraced that I wonder why you have not 'gone the whole hog' and looked at fully active designs.

All the advantages you mention above but with the added bonus of being able to use drive units purpose built for the frequency range required and driven only over the most linear section of their range. Resonances are better controlled and the ragged behaviour of all drivers at the extremes of their operating range can be reduced to inaudibility by high order electronic crossovers.

I understand that you see the Eikona VTL as a project, (I would love to be able to do something like that but do not have the workspace,) and a fun one at that, but take those ideas further and a fully active two or three way speaker is where you end up.

Yep points taken Dave, I did use the word 'usualy', indicating not always. I was aware of the 86db on the Eikona drive unit, I never do things the easy way . . . I am a valve man Dave, if you think about it, the 'full range' option is the rout a valve man will take.

The whole thing regarding speakers and the problems I have experianced with the PMC's has become a project. Taking advise, I have been pointed in the direction of my room as the problem? I have fiddle, pushed and pulled, the room is small at 12ft sq, and a bit clutered too, finding an extra 4 inches between the speakers has made a considerable differance. So its probably not the speakers, its me not wanting to get 'involved with the room'?

So, one is now into a project rather than fixing an issue. I like things like this, especialy working with wood, I have a 24ft shed, half full of junk, but reasonably well kited out, I make and fly RC model airplanes, have done for 60 years, so making a speaker cabinet is simply an extention of my modeling skills. The last thing I did for the hifi was make a TT shelf from an old cottage style open arm chair, I now have an 'old arm chair' screwed to the wall . . . *biggrin* I did post pictures on a thread a year or two back?

The next few months will be interesting, revamping the room, getting rid of the clutter that is my 'studdy', PC, desk, etc. The PC will become a lap top/iPad? so that I can do my computering from the sofa, that includes selecting music, which I curently have to go sit at the desk/PC.

A whole new world is opening for this 67 year old, an open mind is leading me in a direction I never even considerd four weeks ago . . . The computer side frightens me but the benefits and pleasure with the hifi will offset this. Getting the right help with the computer issues is the main problem?

CJSF

Of course if you want a really interesting project an active two way using valve amplification would be the way to go. I heard such a system way back, early 70's, studio setup of course, the electronic crossovers were built into the console and valve power amplifiers were built into racks in the wall below the soffit mounted main monitors, what fun.

I envy you your workshop facilities, I really have no space at all, I have always fancied a valve amp kit and enjoyed building my own speakers, all a long time ago i'm afraid.

Good luck, genuinely interested in how you get on......*drinks*

CJ, if you have the time and the inclination, why not go the whole hog with active DSP. 180 degrees from where you are going now, but in my mind, there are only so many ways you can glue two pieces of wood together before it gets a little old. A lot of the really innovative stuff is being done in the far east. Have a look at:

www.minidsp.com

This will teach you a whole new skill set.

 

[CJSF]

You are all missing the point, 'we are stuck with cable' for true 'hifi SQ' . . . A little sideways thinking can give a whole new perspective on what goes between amp and speaker drive unit. Use a 'full range speaker/driver', the crosover, its active components and their potential colouration (affect on SQ) are eliminated? The amp is conected directly to the single full range speaker terminals, there is no crossover requirement. No large amount of power is usualy required as most full range drive units are high effiency.

Almost a no brainer?

CJSF

According to Wilmslow the Eikona VTLs are just 86db/w, hardly 'high efficiancy'.

Of course the advantages of connecting the drive units directly to the power amplifiers are well known, but having embraced that I wonder why you have not 'gone the whole hog' and looked at fully active designs.

All the advantages you mention above but with the added bonus of being able to use drive units purpose built for the frequency range required and driven only over the most linear section of their range. Resonances are better controlled and the ragged behaviour of all drivers at the extremes of their operating range can be reduced to inaudibility by high order electronic crossovers.

I understand that you see the Eikona VTL as a project, (I would love to be able to do something like that but do not have the workspace,) and a fun one at that, but take those ideas further and a fully active two or three way speaker is where you end up.

Yep points taken Dave, I did use the word 'usualy', indicating not always. I was aware of the 86db on the Eikona drive unit, I never do things the easy way . . . I am a valve man Dave, if you think about it, the 'full range' option is the rout a valve man will take.

The whole thing regarding speakers and the problems I have experianced with the PMC's has become a project. Taking advise, I have been pointed in the direction of my room as the problem? I have fiddle, pushed and pulled, the room is small at 12ft sq, and a bit clutered too, finding an extra 4 inches between the speakers has made a considerable differance. So its probably not the speakers, its me not wanting to get 'involved with the room'?

So, one is now into a project rather than fixing an issue. I like things like this, especialy working with wood, I have a 24ft shed, half full of junk, but reasonably well kited out, I make and fly RC model airplanes, have done for 60 years, so making a speaker cabinet is simply an extention of my modeling skills. The last thing I did for the hifi was make a TT shelf from an old cottage style open arm chair, I now have an 'old arm chair' screwed to the wall . . . *biggrin* I did post pictures on a thread a year or two back?

The next few months will be interesting, revamping the room, getting rid of the clutter that is my 'studdy', PC, desk, etc. The PC will become a lap top/iPad? so that I can do my computering from the sofa, that includes selecting music, which I curently have to go sit at the desk/PC.

A whole new world is opening for this 67 year old, an open mind is leading me in a direction I never even considerd four weeks ago . . . The computer side frightens me but the benefits and pleasure with the hifi will offset this. Getting the right help with the computer issues is the main problem?

CJSF

Of course if you want a really interesting project an active two way using valve amplification would be the way to go. I heard such a system way back, early 70's, studio setup of course, the electronic crossovers were built into the console and valve power amplifiers were built into racks in the wall below the soffit mounted main monitors, what fun.

I envy you your workshop facilities, I really have no space at all, I have always fancied a valve amp kit and enjoyed building my own speakers, all a long time ago i'm afraid.

Good luck, genuinely interested in how you get on......*drinks*

CJ, if you have the time and the inclination, why not go the whole hog with active DSP. 180 degrees from where you are going now, but in my mind, there are only so many ways you can glue two pieces of wood together before it gets a little old. A lot of the really innovative stuff is being done in the far east. Have a look at:

www.minidsp.com

This will teach you a whole new skill set.

. . . ????????????? Sorry, I'm a very hands on person, computers scramble my brain at the best of times*pardon*

Teaching an old dog new tricks is also a wast of time in my case, I have dragged myself from a total breakdown in the mid 90's to just about where I was about then now? To even try to move into the 21st century and stay sain is a dream . . . ???? that tells 'me', why bother, I will keep my old thinking to my self, for my own pleasure. Only a few years left any way, deal with what I can, what I cant will have to stay untouched . . . *smile*

Wood, glue and a bit of old fashoned physical effort will do me fine. I will take great pleasure in building my speakers and getting them to work 'to my satisfaction'. I have done it with my vinyl reproduction, see if I can do something with the end result?

I cannot deal with complications . . .

CJSF

 

[CJSF]

Well I did recently read about single driver and there does seems to be problems, im sure maunfacturers use tweeters for a reason not just for show. The reviews I have seen have not been that great.

Well now BigH . . . I have had a few day to consider this one. True there are '?s' over full range, single driver speakers, I have read a few of the revies and coments. It strikes me, the reviewers seem to expect an all things to all men answer out of these speakers, pointing out the issues without being positive about the strong points . . . Give them a conventional speaker and they pick out the positives and gloss over weekneses.

The strong points of quality and often expensive full range drivers can be seen in their spec., sheet. Falling short at the extreem high and low ends of the spectrum, they excell in the mid-range, a thing many transducers do, classic in this is the Koetsu Black catridge. No critisisum implied simply how it was, and probably still is? Audiophiles still go week at the knees with the mention of Koetsu.

So one has looked at where I am going, looked at and absorbed the reviews and coments. The Jordan Eikona full range drive unit is spec'ed at 30hz to +20,000khz. The reviews on other units point out the lack of extreems, sugesting they might benefit from better cabinet design, from what I have seen, porting is impotant to boost the bottom end?

Jordan have designed the cabinet with folded horn transmision line. My experiance with the 'transmision line' PMC's says this is a good thing, a small cabinet extending down to 35kz, its very tunefull down there too, I have audiophile pipe organ LP's that extend to this level.

So, the original problems with my PMC's was down to me not getting the placement or room quite right, we are only talking a couple of centimeters! This adressed, not 100% but enought to make me happy I'm moving in the right direction. The speaker thing has turned into a project, an itch I have always wanted to scratch since the mid 60's when I heard Uncle Sids Lowthers, (small drivers, vertical firing horns groved inside) on the end of his Garrard 301/Quad system. I can still hear it now, so sweet and tunefull but with an attack that I now know was something special as we listened to Jango Rineheart . . . yes Sid was a Jazz fan.

I have side lined another project to finance this one . . . I'm indulging my tweakyness I supose . . . Win or loose, its going to be interesting and different to the normal 'box change' possibilities we see . . . *smile*

CJSF

 

[tazzo]

To improve the sound of course....

 

[CJSF]

So her we go, as I have said, this new project with the 'Jordan full range speakers' is set as a bonus, to tidy up my listening room/study. Out yesterday buying new furniture, to get rid of ugly desk and rack, and in the process making more space for the speakers to breath. We have decided to move the record/CD storage into the next room, clearing some of the furniture in there too, in the process redecorating the room, which is looking very tired . . . Hazel very happy.*air_kiss*

This is the preperation process for the new Jordans which will not be here befor October and then they have to be built. The shift around and decorating will be finished by the end of August . . . gave myself a shock this morning, July is almost over, new car expected early September . . .

So I will enjoy the new listening room and placing the curent speakers to get the best out of them and getting used to the sound of the room in its new guise, exciting period ahead.

CJSF

 

[The_Lhc]

Only a few years left any way,

Jebus Cripes man, you're only 67! You've got years left, my dad's ten years older than you and still plays golf 3 times a week, you ain't dead yet, stop digging your grave already!

The way pensions are going I'll still have another 3 years (or more) of working left for me when I get to that age!

67 is NOT old!

 

[CJSF]

Only a few years left any way,

Jebus Cripes man, you're only 67! You've got years left, my dad's ten years older than you and still plays golf 3 times a week, you ain't dead yet, stop digging your grave already!

The way pensions are going I'll still have another 3 years (or more) of working left for me when I get to that age!

67 is NOT old!

Yes The_Lhc so I'm told but sometimes I feel so warn down I do feel like I have had enough . . . That said, a little lift, I'm not feeling to bad at present. A bit of decorating to do, a couple or three months ago I could hardly pick up a paint brush or put a record on, much of my music was streamed or CD, both easy for me. My left leg gave out a couple of months ago 'forcing!' a new automatic car, my generl health has been at an all time low, which means my mental state gets knocked?

We all go there . . . dont we? Now I'm feeling much better, changed my eating habits, things to look forward to . . . feeling quite chipper at present *smile*

Appologies to all, I do come over a bit of a missery sometimes, must try harder . . . *i-m_so_happy*

CJSF