Voicing of speakers

[Pedro2]

My recent thoughts about going active have also made me ponder this issue. It appears that most active speakers do sound different to most passives (going on what people say here because I've yet to start hearing the active variety myself). Some prefer the former but many might not. Why, I wonder?

My son is learning to play the violin and, at times, the sound can border on 'harsh' (even when he's playing the correct notes!). Would I want the sound reproduced in a 'sweetened' manner from my hi fi kit? I'm not sure but probably not. It raises the issue of what we want from our audio systems. Sometimes, people might not want the exact sound that the instrument produces (referring to acoustic instruments here of course).

Does this explain why people disagree so much on what great audio reproduction is, especially when it comes down to speakers?

 

[Vladimir]

Accurate and dynamic can be fatiguing, just like live music is. But there is a difference between harsh because of accurate brass orchestra reproduction and harsh because of cone breakup or amplifier clipping.

 

[Gazzip]

IMO and experience we should all buy loudspeakers with as flat a response as possible. If you want to change the sound you can then DSP/equalize the hell out of your system, add a valve amp, stick socks in their ports, whatever you want to change that sound, but keep your speakers as close to a true reference as you can.

At the end of the day you are probably listening to the room anyway, not the speakers, so DSP the system so that it is starting from a point of accuracy and then adjust the sound (room curve) to suit using your DSP.

 

[seemorebtts]

I use dynaudio emit m20 Speaker's but a month ago i got some EB acoustics eb2s which were alot better than my dynaudio's.very real and natural sound with lots of detail.but started to get fatigue after an hour of listening. these are not harsh Speaker's and i just don't know why this was happening.i put my dynaudio's back on and my ears just started to relax and take in all the music.even tho there not as good the dynaudio's have musical talent that just suites my ears

 

[Frank Harvey]

As this is a hobby for many people, they want to relax to their music when they get home from a stressful day at work, they want to enjoy it - they're not necessarily after ultimate accuracy. Many wouldn't know what that is anyway, and probably wouldn't like it if they heard it. I certainly know of many people who have heard active speakers or more neutral hi-fi systems and not liked what they heard, basically because they lack warmth, which sweetens higher frequencies.

Whilst you can point out and demonstrate more accurate sounding products to people, you can't make them pay for something they don't like the sound of.

 

[Vladimir]

As this is a hobby for many people, they want to relax to their music when they get home from a stressful day at work, they want to enjoy it - they're not necessarily after ultimate accuracy. Many wouldn't know what that is anyway, and probably wouldn't like it if they heard it. I certainly know of many people who have heard active speakers or more neutral hi-fi systems and not liked what they heard, basically because they lack warmth, which sweetens higher frequencies.

Whilst you can point out and demonstrate more accurate sounding products to people, you can't make them pay for something they don't like the sound of.

I personally find that best thing to do after a stressful day is to relax in a comfy chair and play Eye of the tiger at 105db.

 

[nopiano]

Based on my limited exposure to active speakers, I'm not sure I'd attribute any particular voicing to them as a 'breed'. However, it is well know that studio designs, mostly intended for nearfield listening can seem a bit too clear and revealing to listeners more accustomed to domestic hifi. As David says above, many people want nice rather than accurate anyway. And some actives avoid the obvious flaws in conventional systems.

As to violins, I've heard some family members playing both violin and cello, and you definitely get the warts an' all when listening at close proximity - much as might have been the case for a parlour room string quartet, in days gone by. Interestingly, when you hear a top fiddler in action, one of the things that sets them apart is they way they can infinitely voice their instrument from warm and rich, to bright and wiry, at will. Anyone learning, will be some way short of such exalted capabilities and are lucky to get the note reasonably accurately, as you say!

 

[Frank Harvey]

I personally find that best thing to do after a stressful day is to relax in a comfy chair and play Eye of the tiger at 105db.

Air guitar sitting down is boring though...

 

[davedotco]

My day needed a bit of a lift late this afternoon, J & MC played as loud as I dare.

I don't get this 'nice and relaxing' thing, if the musicians don't make me sit up and take notice, they're not doing it right.

Personal thing I guess...

 

[Vladimir]

My day needed a bit of a lift late this afternoon, J & MC played as loud as I dare.

I don't get this 'nice and relaxing' thing, if the musicians don't make me sit up and take notice, they're not doing it right.

Personal thing I guess...

If you play loud death metal through warm and muddy sounding system it's effectively a spa treatment.

 

[lindsayt]

It's a myth that active speakers have any particularly apparent sonic traits. Any sonic effects from being active or passive will be swamped by differences caused by driver choice and cabinet design - which in the vast majority of speakers are sub-optimum from a sound reproduction point of view.

There's a lot more to making a realistic sounding speaker than having a relatively flat frequency response. Clarity, dynamics, room dispersion / room effects etc etc.

At speaker bake-offs there's generally a good consensus of agreement on what sounds better and why.

The main reasons for people disagreeing about hi-fi are that:

1. they haven't had the same listening experiences.

2. vested commercial or emotional interest in certain products or technologies. IE the buy what I've bought mentality or the buy what I'm selling mentality. There can also be the "I don't /do like you as a person" therefore "I'm not going to / going to like your hi-fi system" mentality.

 

[Gazzip]

It's a myth that active speakers have any particularly apparent sonic traits. Any sonic effects from being active or passive will be swamped by differences caused by driver choice and cabinet design - which in the vast majority of speakers are sub-optimum from a sound reproduction point of view.

There's a lot more to making a realistic sounding speaker than having a relatively flat frequency response. Clarity, dynamics, room dispersion / room effects etc etc.

At speaker bake-offs there's generally a good consensus of agreement on what sounds better and why.

The main reasons for people disagreeing about hi-fi are that:

1. they haven't had the same listening experiences.

2. vested commercial or emotional interest in certain products or technologies. IE the buy what I've bought mentality or the buy what I'm selling mentality. There can also be the "I don't /do like you as a person" therefore "I'm not going to / going to like your hi-fi system" mentality.

Your description of what makes a good speaker is spot on. It is more than a flat response, it is also clarity and dynamics. The room affects you can however pretty much fix with third party products.

I agree with the first bit of your statement (in bold above), but surely the type of people you describe in the second part of it don't really exist do they? I have always kept an open mind when listening to brands outside of my comfort zone, or at least I think I have.

 

[abacus]

By and large active speakers are used by pro musicians and producers who need an accurate representation of the sound they are recording/producing, (As they are recording live musicians they know exactly what it should sound like) therefore they tend to be neutral in the sound they deliver, however, like all things, there is only a certain amount you can do with a limited amount of money, therefore are lot of entry level actives tend to be focused towards certain types of music, whereas the more expensive are as accurate as possible.

Passive entry level Hi Fi speakers tend to be more focussed on sounding nice, so that they do not emphasise their limitations, whereas the more expensive (Like the more expensive Actives) are designed to give an accurate as sound as possible, unfortunately, as they do not know what amplification is going to be used with them, (A lot of Hi-Fi amp manufactures colour their sound to get a particular house sound) they must be all-rounders, (Or built with a particular amp manufacture in mind) whereas manufactures of active speakers don’t have this problem to deal with.

In the end, it all comes down to personal choice. So just go with the combination that suits you, and forget how they are made.

Bill

 

[lindsayt]

abacus, I will admit that my experience of modern large active speakers is limited. The only ones I've properly auditioned have been active ATC 50's.

I can understand why some owners are very happy with '50's and I would describe them as good sounding speakers. However they are not for me. And they won't be for many people who are seriously into getting the best sounding systems they can. When you take into account their high price, both new and 2nd hand (general ebay pricing) I can not describe active ATC 50's as having a particularly accurate sound, nor of them being tonally neutral (unless you put them next to the wall / corners in which case the bass quality suffers - in the rooms I've heard them in). The only way they could be described is "accurate" would be if you consider a lean tonal balance and a certain amount of dynamic compression as a euphemism for accurate. Some people do, because such speakers can be quite good for hearing the lower level details in the midrange - compared to genuinely more tonally and dynamically accurate speakers where the listener's brain may be distracted by the bass or the emotional / physical impact of transients.

No speaker ever made is as accurate as I would like. They all have their sonic compromises. Accuracy in speakers in a relative thing. There are speakers that are passive that sound more accurate to my ears than ATC 50's.

If anyone would like to nominate the most accurate speaker ever made (active or passive) - that can be bought without me losing £tens of thousands in depreciation on it - I might be interested in checking it out.

 

[Vladimir]

If anyone would like to nominate the most accurate speaker ever made (active or passive) - that can be bought without me losing £tens of thousands in depreciation on it - I might be interested in checking it out.

Maybe hitch a ride with Andrewjvt and checkout JBLs new pro actives (7 series and especially M2) and report your impressions. I don't know if Music Matter plans on importing the M2 and demoing it.

 

[lindsayt]

I agree with the first bit of your statement (in bold above), but surely the type of people you describe in the second part of it don't really exist do they? I have always kept an open mind when listening to brands outside of my comfort zone, or at least I think I have.

Gazzip yes they do exist. Most people, including me are guilty of it to some extent, especially at events like Scalford. Most people are able to over-ride it and give each system a fair chance to show what it can do in an AB demo. But there are some people that get so involved in hi-fi tribalism / my-gang your-gang mentality that they don't have the ability to be fair minded when auditioning systems.

I can name names, but would prefer not to publicly on this forum as it's against the What Hi-fi forum ethos.

 

[lindsayt]

If anyone would like to nominate the most accurate speaker ever made (active or passive) - that can be bought without me losing £tens of thousands in depreciation on it - I might be interested in checking it out.

Maybe hitch a ride with Andrewjvt and checkout JBLs new pro actives (7 series and especially M2) and report your impressions. I don't know if Music Matter plans on importing the M2 and demoing it.

Good call, I'd be very happy to check out the M2.

Edit: I wouldn't be happy buying them new at a price of £14k per pair.

 

[Vladimir]

If anyone would like to nominate the most accurate speaker ever made (active or passive) - that can be bought without me losing £tens of thousands in depreciation on it - I might be interested in checking it out.

Maybe hitch a ride with Andrewjvt and checkout JBLs new pro actives (7 series and especially M2) and report your impressions. I don't know if Music Matter plans on importing the M2 and demoing it.

Good call, I'd be very happy to check out the M2.

Edit: I wouldn't be happy buying them new at a price of £14k per pair.

14K without any amps and crossovers. *biggrin* All you get is 2 boxes and 4 drivers. They typically sell paired with TOTL Crown touring amps that have DSP to serve as active crossover. But some studios simply want only the boxes and drivers.

Very few people have heard these. The research behind them and the huge success of the trickled down LSR305 / LSR308 made a tectonic noise both in pro and audiophile communities. IMO worth auditioning regardless of buying intentions.

 

[Pedro2]

If anyone would like to nominate the most accurate speaker ever made (active or passive) - that can be bought without me losing £tens of thousands in depreciation on it - I might be interested in checking it out.

Maybe hitch a ride with Andrewjvt and checkout JBLs new pro actives (7 series and especially M2) and report your impressions. I don't know if Music Matter plans on importing the M2 and demoing it.

Good call, I'd be very happy to check out the M2.

Edit: I wouldn't be happy buying them new at a price of £14k per pair.

14K without any amps and crossovers. *biggrin* All you get is 2 boxes and 4 drivers. They typically sell paired with TOTL Crown touring amps that have DSP to serve as active crossover. But some studios simply want only the boxes and drivers.

Very few people have heard these. The research behind them and the huge success of the trickled down LSR305 / LSR308 made a tectonic noise both in pro and audiophile communities. IMO worth auditioning regardless of buying intentions.

Was reading about the LSR305 earlier today and found some reviews interesting. One guy on Headfi forum stated that these powered speakers gave him more detail than his favoured headphones (£1000 Stax if I remember correctly). Just cannot believe the price of these speakers; £130 each approx. So tempted to sell my passive gear and buy these. I'd then either keep them or use them as temps until finally settling on something better (and more expensive!).

Having said that, just listening to Classic FM and Fantasia on a Theme by Vaughan Williams through the ATCs and Nord. It's sounding very good. Changing kit is sometimes a total nightmare. Maybe I should just go to bed!

 

[Vladimir]

If anyone would like to nominate the most accurate speaker ever made (active or passive) - that can be bought without me losing £tens of thousands in depreciation on it - I might be interested in checking it out.

Maybe hitch a ride with Andrewjvt and checkout JBLs new pro actives (7 series and especially M2) and report your impressions. I don't know if Music Matter plans on importing the M2 and demoing it.

Good call, I'd be very happy to check out the M2.

Edit: I wouldn't be happy buying them new at a price of £14k per pair.

14K without any amps and crossovers. *biggrin* All you get is 2 boxes and 4 drivers. They typically sell paired with TOTL Crown touring amps that have DSP to serve as active crossover. But some studios simply want only the boxes and drivers.

Very few people have heard these. The research behind them and the huge success of the trickled down LSR305 / LSR308 made a tectonic noise both in pro and audiophile communities. IMO worth auditioning regardless of buying intentions.

Was reading about the LSR305 earlier today and found some reviews interesting. One guy on Headfi forum stated that these powered speakers gave him more detail than his favoured headphones (£1000 Stax if I remember correctly). Just cannot believe the price of these speakers; £130 each approx. So tempted to sell my passive gear and buy these. I'd then either keep them or use them as temps until finally settling on something better (and more expensive!).

Having said that, just listening to Classic FM and Fantasia on a Theme by Vaughan Williams through the ATCs and Nord. It's sounding very good. Changing kit is sometimes a total nightmare. Maybe I should just go to bed!

I call BS. They are nice, even terrific for the price but not exactly Quad ESL killers.

Regardless, I think everyone should buy these for 2 reasons:

1) to burst their preconceptions about pro actives sounding clinical, harsh, cold and fatiguing.

2) hear the best imaging in a regular untreated room money can buy.

 

[lindsayt]

Pedro2, I'm confident that you could sell your entire system, put half the proceeds towards a holiday, the other half towards audio equipment and still end up with a system that sounds better than what you have now.

That's the nature of hi-fi. Whatever you buy there's something you could have gotten elsewhere for less money that would have sounded better.

And as Vladimir has quite rightly pointed out, be wary of any review that tells you how great any speakers sound without mentioning any downsides whatsoever. Every speaker I've ever heard has had easy to hear compromises in one area or another. If a reviewer doesn't have the experience / ability / integrity to describe them; don't take his review seriously.

 

[Romulus]

A HiFi dealer once said to me your choice of HiFi (whether speakers or other components) really depends on what kind of presentation you prefer. Inardvertently I think he just solved the essence of HiFi. Hence you have people who love the 'vinyl' sound or the digitlal sound. Passive speakers or active speakers and so on. Some say with solemn gravity that the ATC give a honest presentation, but some may argue then why does one hear sibilance in the voice via the speakers but not in real life, something artificial is going on; ah ah! Active speakers suppose to be superior in sonics but if the passive speaker is well built with solid constructed crossovers it can compete on level playing field atleast. The Naim Statement is supposely to be the dogs bollocks in sound but then if it is over £100,00.00 I at least want it to be a miracle.. Ah its a crazy world of HiFi vs Sound/musicality..!

 

[ErwinC]

If anyone would like to nominate the most accurate speaker ever made (active or passive) - that can be bought without me losing £tens of thousands in depreciation on it - I might be interested in checking it out.

KEF LS50 wireless

or

Dynaudio Contour 20

 

[lindsayt]

If anyone would like to nominate the most accurate speaker ever made (active or passive) - that can be bought without me losing £tens of thousands in depreciation on it - I might be interested in checking it out.

KEF LS50 wireless

or

Dynaudio Contour 20

Do you think these tiny 2 way ported budget direct radiators will have accurate bass in terms of extension, volume relative to the midrange, clarity / timing / texture, dynamics?

 

[ErwinC]

If anyone would like to nominate the most accurate speaker ever made (active or passive) - that can be bought without me losing £tens of thousands in depreciation on it - I might be interested in checking it out.

KEF LS50 wireless

or

Dynaudio Contour 20

Do you think these tiny 2 way ported budget direct radiators will have accurate bass in terms of extension, volume relative to the midrange, clarity / timing / texture, dynamics?

For their price they are one of the best in the areas you mention imo.

If you really want one of the best in those areas you could consider the TAD Evolution One. But these cost a LOT more.