voicing of a hifi component

lpv

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as Your submission has triggered the spam filter and will not be accepted I cannot answer davedotco why I've asked him to explain 'voicing' of an hifi component so here we are.. ( and I simply asked you as you've explained in plain english quite a few issues here so I presume you may shed some light on this one)

why some amps sound dark the others bright or lean? where it comes from? do they have built in 'tone controls' / an EQ hidden from the user, set up by component architect and that's what makes so called ' house sound' ? what makes the component sounds different than the other? different parts? did they manipulate, tuned the sound?is it the so called 'voicing' a chip? an equalizer? a formula added to the preamp? how it's being made/ implemented?
 

Vladimir

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Here is something to get you started. Its very civilian friendly material despite the topic of electronics.

http://tech.juaneda.com/en/articles/electrolyticcapacitors.html

Comparing electrolytic capacitors by their sound signature

ZL - Rubycon ZL

FC - Panasonic FC 50V

SI - Elna Silmic II

BG - Black Gate

SP - Sprague 515D(M)

HD - Nichicon UHD

EC - Panasonic ECA (Panasonic MA)

FD - Panasonic FC 100V

Dave may not aprove of this reading material.
evil.png
 

drummerman

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Yes, designers 'voice' their products.

Naim amplifiers are not wideband but roll off around 20khz and damping is around a low 12. Others are wideband with no significant hf roll-off to very high khz. Then there is the 'trick' of deliberately introducing distortion, using discreet components to fine tune output stages rather than IC's etc etc.

As Vladimir said, using a certain component can change sound but how it is implemented/circuit design is probably far more important.

regards
 

davedotco

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Vladimir said:
Here is something to get you started. Its very civilian friendly material despite the topic of electronics.

http://tech.juaneda.com/en/articles/electrolyticcapacitors.html

Comparing electrolytic capacitors by their sound signature

ZL - Rubycon ZL

FC - Panasonic FC 50V

SI - Elna Silmic II

BG - Black Gate

SP - Sprague 515D(M)

HD - Nichicon UHD

EC - Panasonic ECA (Panasonic MA)

FD - Panasonic FC 100V

Dave may not aprove of this reading material.
evil.png

I am entirely comfortable with the idea that using good capacitors will make a worthwhile difference, I have seen some Jensen electrolytics used with notable success.

Interestingly, the tests are sighted and the more expensive/well known components do best. Who would have expected that........ :?
 

davedotco

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I have absolutely no idea what is done electronically to give hi-fi components their characteristic sound.

Drummerman is quite right to pint out how different philosophies on managing bandwidth can cause differences, Naim equipment is all designed to the same criteria and has a distinctive 'house' sound, as for different reasons does Arcam.

In some cases the sound is a direct result of the design philosophy used, ie the design is produced because the designed thinks that is the way things should be done and the resulting 'character' is what you get.

Some products are simply designed to have as little character as possible, ie to be effectively transparent. The budget O-Dac is agood example of this, near perfect performance, modest cost and modest sales, because it does not have the 'character' of many more expensive Dacs.

Then there is the deliberate 'tweaks', small changes made by the designer to 'improve' the quality of their products. Difficult this, as any deviation from transparent is effectively distortion but some designers seem to have a trick of making components sound more 'real', the really good designers make things sound really good on all kinds of music, a pretty clever trick that.

Then of couse you get brands/designers who try and design whatever is in fashion, just following the trends. The hi-fi word undergoes a valve revival so said manufacturer produces big, cuddly sounding valve amps, next year solid state Class A etc, etc.

An interesting example is Rega. When they introduced their first amplifiers they wanted a sound that paralleled a certain brand that was often paired with their players. The result was a couple of 'fast', explicit amplifiers that matched well to their big selling analogue front ends.

When they came to build their first CD player they made sure that it had a more full bodied, slightly darker sound that was fairly similar to their record players, they even went out of their way to market their CD player as having a very 'analogue' sound.

This kind of established a precedent and even now, the Rega Dac is highly regarded for it's warm 'analogue' sound.
 

Vladimir

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Roksan Kandy K2 BT is a lateral MOSFET, wide bandwith and high instanteneous current capability with 5 regulated voltage rails. The caps used in the signal path are Elna Silmic II. The result is a predictable "analogue" and "tube-like" sound.
 

Covenanter

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Vladimir said:
Here is something to get you started. Its very civilian friendly material despite the topic of electronics.

http://tech.juaneda.com/en/articles/electrolyticcapacitors.html

Comparing electrolytic capacitors by their sound signature

ZL - Rubycon ZL

FC - Panasonic FC 50V

SI - Elna Silmic II

BG - Black Gate

SP - Sprague 515D(M)

HD - Nichicon UHD

EC - Panasonic ECA (Panasonic MA)

FD - Panasonic FC 100V

Dave may not aprove of this reading material.
evil.png

Have you been smoking something?
smiley-laughing.gif


Chris
 

Covenanter

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Vladimir said:
Too eclectic for you there Chris?
avatar84917_6.gif


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_0r-VyhLM4

I hope you realise that using words like "eclectic" on this forum is dangerous. The WHFI staff may see it and then they will use it in a review, misspelt of course.

Chris
 

unsleepable

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drummerman said:
Yes, designers 'voice' their products.

Naim amplifiers are not wideband but roll off around 20khz and damping is around a low 12. Others are wideband with no significant hf roll-off to very high khz. Then there is the 'trick' of deliberately introducing distortion, using discreet components to fine tune output stages rather than IC's etc etc.

As Vladimir said, using a certain component can change sound but how it is implemented/circuit design is probably far more important.

regards

I wonder something about this… The damping factor is an attribute of the power amplifier—related to the output impedance—, but the sound signature typically comes from the preamp section, right? So would it be possible to get the Naim sound but with tighter bass using a Naim preamp and a different power amplifier with a higher damping factor?
 

Vladimir

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Thanks DM for progressing the discussion further. Circuit design is the holistic level that can be properly atributed for components performance and "character". An engineered product is more than the sum of its parts. There is a designer, an idea that makes it all work together at its core.

If an amplifier is consisted of 15 diodes, 32 capaciors, 1 transformer, 3 switches, 2 trimmers, 84 resistors.... etc. Take them all and randomly connect them on a breadboard with no logic applied to it.

Plug it in.
grin.gif


Bum!!!

Didn't work?
mad.gif


Not only it won't work randomly but give the same materials to two different designers and they will make 2 different amplifiers that measure differently and due to that amplify differently. Well if we gave them the same parts why did they make different amps, not the one best possible one of all the 7298450239203 random options?

Firstly knowledge and inspiration, secondly goals.

First one means a designer has a quantity and quality of knowledge that is different than other designers. He may belong to a school of thought like zero NFB Matti Otala or Nelson Pass first watt or even free amp circuit design from a1967 Wireless World magazine article. If both designers we gave parts to assemble an amp belong to the same school of ideas in engineering, they will make fairly similar performing and sounding design inspired by their favorite inovators.

The set goals is where individualism, creativity and invention comes from.

What is a the best amplifier? To one designer, lets call him the "engineer", it will be the best measuring and performing one and to the other designer, which we will call the "alchemist" it's the best sounding one to his/her ears even if it compromises performance.

The engineer will aim at least THD, most linear FR, lowest output impedance, highest slew rate and power output in a wide bandwith circuitry. To achieve this he will use a lot of parts and complex circuitry for his amplifier and to meet a budget (s)he will have to use stock parts. Finished product will weight 30kg, drive any speaker on planet earth with ease, weld your child's bicycle, warm your living space, frigidize your wife's libido, inflate your electric bill and sound dull and boring like a wire with a volume knob. The marketing materials wont be exciting as well, considering all the money went into building and delivering it.

harman-kardon-hk990-11.jpg


The alchemist will use less parts in a simpler circuitry and focus on getting a certain type of sound out of it. The amp will have high gain, higher distortion, noise from the grid, high output impedance, low power rating but large PSU and the bandwith cut off at 20kHz so the underengineered circuit doesn't have to deal with more than it has to. Noise hiss has loudness effect in human hearing, makes things "pop out" when unnoticably blended in with the pure signal, This translates to a loudness curve of uncontroled and weak fruity lower bass but very gitty exciting punchy upper bass, mids and highs. A lot of the musical ambient microdetail is lost and the sound may look flat and 2D but it will be more direct, simpler to communicate in foot tapping musical entertainment. Loudness curve due to human nonlinear hearing gives an impression of an amp that is more powerfull than it actually declares. Just like pushing the loudness button on your AIWA mini system.

The finished product will weigh 7kg including the box and the 4kg of marketing brochures with exciting names with TM symbols next to them.

NAIM-NAIT-5si_Inside.jpg


The engineer's goal is to build each time the bigger and better chappel for high fidelity history, humanity, the mentor, for mom to be proud and so on. The alchemist's goal is to make product that common people will like to buy and thus make coal into gold.

A lot more can be said on the topic but i shouldn't hog the mic.

Cheerio.

:wave:
 

Electro

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Vladimir said:
Thanks DM for progressing the discussion further. Circuit design is the holistic level that can be properly atributed for components performance and "character". An engineered product is more than the sum of its parts. There is a designer, an idea that makes it all work together at its core.

If an amplifier is consisted of 15 diodes, 32 capaciors, 1 transformer, 3 switches, 2 trimmers, 84 resistors.... etc. Take them all and randomly connect them on a breadboard with no logic applied to it.

Plug it in.
grin.gif


Bum!!!

Didn't work?
mad.gif


Not only it won't work randomly but give the same materials to two different designers and they will make 2 different amplifiers that measure differently and due to that amplify differently. Well if we gave them the same parts why did they make different amps, not the one best possible one of all the 7298450239203 random options?

Firstly knowledge and inspiration, secondly goals.

First one means a designer has a quantity and quality of knowledge that is different than other designers. He may belong to a school of thought like zero NFB Matti Otala or Nelson Pass first watt or even free amp circuit design from a1967 Wireless World magazine article. If both designers we gave parts to assemble an amp belong to the same school of ideas in engineering, they will make fairly similar performing and sounding design inspired by their favorite inovators.

The set goals is where individualism, creativity and invention comes from.

What is a the best amplifier? To one designer, lets call him the "engineer", it will be the best measuring and performing one and to the other designer, which we will call the "alchemist" it's the best sounding one to his/her ears even if it compromises performance.

The engineer will aim at least THD, most linear FR, lowest output impedance, highest slew rate and power output in a wide bandwith circuitry. To achieve this he will use a lot of parts and complex circuitry for his amplifier and to meet a budget (s)he will have to use stock parts. Finished product will weight 30kg, drive any speaker on planet earth with ease, weld your child's bicycle, warm your living space, frigidize your wife's libido, inflate your electric bill and sound dull and boring like a wire with a volume knob. The marketing materials wont be exciting as well, considering all the money went into building and delivering it.

harman-kardon-hk990-11.jpg


The alchemist will use less parts in a simpler circuitry and focus on getting a certain type of sound out of it. The amp will have high gain, higher distortion, noise from the grid, high output impedance, low power rating but large PSU and the bandwith cut off at 20kHz so the underengineered circuit doesn't have to deal with more than it has to. Noise hiss has loudness effect in human hearing, makes things "pop out" when unnoticably blended in with the pure signal, This translates to a loudness curve of uncontroled and weak fruity lower bass but very gitty exciting punchy upper bass, mids and highs. A lot of the musical ambient microdetail is lost and the sound may look flat and 2D but it will be more direct, simpler to communicate in foot tapping musical entertainment. Loudness curve due to human nonlinear hearing gives an impression of an amp that is more powerfull than it actually declares. Just like pushing the loudness button on your AIWA mini system.

The finished product will weigh 7kg including the box and the 4kg of marketing brochures with exciting names with TM symbols next to them.

NAIM-NAIT-5si_Inside.jpg


The engineer's goal is to build each time the bigger and better chappel for high fidelity history, humanity, the mentor, for mom to be proud and so on. The alchemist's goal is to make product that common people will like to buy and thus make coal into gold.

A lot more can be said on the topic but i shouldn't hog the mic.

Cheerio.

:wave:

I like this :grin:
 

TrevC

Well-known member
To 'voice' an amplifier differently you have to deviate from a flat frequency response. You can do it with eq or tone controls, and on speakers,but not on a amplifier.

"Noise hiss has loudness effect in human hearing, makes things "pop out" when unnoticably blended in with the pure signal"

Nope. Hiss is background noise, loudness is a boost of the bass and treble at low levels (eq) to compensate for the characteristics of the human ear. No idea what the rest is all about.
 

davedotco

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TrevC said:
To 'voice' an amplifier differently you have to deviate from a flat frequency response. You can do it with eq or tone controls, and on speakers,but not on a amplifier.

"Noise hiss has loudness effect in human hearing, makes things "pop out" when unnoticably blended in with the pure signal"

Nope. Hiss is background noise, loudness is a boost of the bass and treble at low levels (eq) to compensate for the characteristics of the human ear. No idea what the rest is all about.

I'm not sure what this is about either........ :?

However a recent experiment on the Harbeth forum suggests that adding noise to a low noise digital recording makes it sound more analogue and more preferable, to some users at least.
 

Vladimir

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It is an age old trick in post production. Passing digital through 30ips tape or adding nose in software.

Also an amp can be voiced to sound differently by making it with large output impedance (low damping factor) which will effectively make it with unequal FR that varies with the speaker impedance. This is one of the reasons amps such as SET amps with 5-15 DF sound more "musical" and amps with high DF dull.
 

Electro

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Vladimir said:
It is an age old trick in post production. Passing digital through 30ips tape or adding nose in software.

Also an amp can be voiced to sound differently by making it with large output impedance (low damping factor) which will effectively make it with unequal FR that varies with the speaker impedance. This is one of the reasons amps such as SET amps with 5-15 DF sound more "musical" and amps with high DF dull.

I not sure all amps with a high damping factor sound dull :p my Electro monoblocks have a damping factor of 1000 and believe me they do not sound dull at all , they grab you by the b@lls and make you enjoy the music :shifty: ;)
 

unsleepable

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unsleepable said:
I wonder something about this… The damping factor is an attribute of the power amplifier—related to the output impedance—, but the sound signature typically comes from the preamp section, right? So would it be possible to get the Naim sound but with tighter bass using a Naim preamp and a different power amplifier with a higher damping factor?

Anyone has insights about this? I'm really curious how sound matching is managed when going the pre/power separates way.
 

Vladimir

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Electro said:
I not sure all amps with a high damping factor sound dull :p my Electro monoblocks have a damping factor of 1000 and believe me they do not sound dull at all , they grab you by the b@lls and make you enjoy the music :shifty: ;)

But highly potent, linear and controlling amps have no PRaT!
grin.gif
 

Electro

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Vladimir said:
Electro said:
I not sure all amps with a high damping factor sound dull :p my Electro monoblocks have a damping factor of 1000 and believe me they do not sound dull at all , they grab you by the b@lls and make you enjoy the music :shifty: ;)

But highly potent, linear and controlling amps have no PRaT!
grin.gif

Obviously someone at Electrocompaniet forgot to hire some PRaT's :grin:

Perhaps they could borrow some from a well known British company , I am sure they should have some spare ;) :)
 

TrevC

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Vladimir said:
It is an age old trick in post production. Passing digital through 30ips tape or adding nose in software.

Also an amp can be voiced to sound differently by making it with large output impedance (low damping factor) which will effectively make it with unequal FR that varies with the speaker impedance. This is one of the reasons amps such as SET amps with 5-15 DF sound more "musical" and amps with high DF dull.

But if you did that the 'voicing' would be different for every speaker that is connected.
 

lpv

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unsleepable said:
unsleepable said:
I wonder something about this… The damping factor is an attribute of the power amplifier—related to the output impedance—, but the sound signature typically comes from the preamp section, right? So would it be possible to get the Naim sound but with tighter bass using a Naim preamp and a different power amplifier with a higher damping factor?

Anyone has insights about this? I'm really curious how sound matching is managed when going the pre/power separates way.

I'm interested in that too.. all I know is: active ATC 20 with ATC pre and cd and same speakers with old Audio Research tube pre and cd [ with two subwoofers in the corners ].. first combination was all I ever wanted till I've heard second.. the big sound, massive punch was still there but now low freq were presented with ease... softer? no, efortless I should say.. attack changed from dry to natural, fuller and still fast.. this 'hybrid' combination was the effect of changing components over the years and with this set up my lovely host achieved the sound he was after and good enough for his eclectic music interest.. I must say the overall audio research/ ATC presentation was extremely good sounding, the change in pre amp and source section was obvious, not delicate, inaudiable difference.. and for good.. music was served in a way you just like it more..

in all freq music was warmer but not sloppier, great clarity and soundstage.. there was more of everything in all directions.. simply the best audition I've ever had.
 

SpursGator

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I missed this over the weekend. Thanks for the epic post Vladimir.

There are so many factors involved in designing an amp, and they all have subtly different effects on what we hear. Sometimes so subtle that reasonable people disagree about whether you can really hear it. But there are a lot of different ways to build an amp. If you try building one you will see that at every stage of construction you make decisions with no right answer - just trade-offs between one advantage or another. And cost is an issue with each decision too no matter who you are.

Those decisions you make at every 50/50 moment will collectively give your amp a 'voice.'

The people asking about mixing pre and power: the answer to your question is yes. You can fiddle with the sound with that mix. My system has a very accurate and somewhat analytical DAC, feeding a tube preamp with only the slightest trace of warmth, feeding a middle-of-the road tradtional power amp. Which I would like to upgrade, shocking.

The speakers make the biggest difference but they work so synergistally with the amps that it all matters. Every time you change a component you can hear the difference. I'm sure someone could blindfold me and switch back and forth enough times that I became confused and then they could triumphantly proclaim that you can't hear the differences in A/B tests. But back when it was more common to have pre and power it was quite common to chase a certain sound by mixing them up. You can still do that today and it's still fun - and easier than ever thanks to online auction sites. Don't tell the active speaker crowd about what you are doing, as you will be ridiculed. But you might find that perfect hifi moment where you find some components that really do work well together, and it's worth it.

Finally, don't pay attention to people who ask you what you're smoking when you ask about capacitors. Any good speaker designer is perfectly aware of the differences in sound between different capacitors. People laugh and say, it's x microfarads, there's a tolerance, what do you mean? These people probably don't know much about the effect of microphony. If you are curious about it, here is some info. Tony Gee is a highly respected speaker designer who gives away a lot of knowledge for free. He's a bit of a capacitor freak, but there are perfectly valid reasons why different capacitors sound different, and why making fewer cost compromises can minimise the effect of microphony and give you a more unadulterated sound.

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
 

Overdose

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SpursGator said:
Finally, don't pay attention to people who ask you what you're smoking when you ask about capacitors. Any good speaker designer is perfectly aware of the differences in sound between different capacitors. People laugh and say, it's x microfarads, there's a tolerance, what do you mean? These people probably don't know much about the effect of microphony. If you are curious about it, here is some info. Tony Gee is a highly respected speaker designer who gives away a lot of knowledge for free. He's a bit of a capacitor freak, but there are perfectly valid reasons why different capacitors sound different, and why making fewer cost compromises can minimise the effect of microphony and give you a more unadulterated sound.

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

To test wether or not microphony is an issue in 21st centuray audio technology, simply tap the side of the the suspicious component and listen (go gentle on the record or CD player). The resuts will tell all that is needed to know.
 

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