Very disappointed with my set up, speaker advice needed

[NJB]

I have been using my setup for 2 years, and it has never really come together properly. Perhaps somebody who knows the good and bad ways of getting surround sound can advise me.

I have a Sony STR DN840 and started with set of Kef egg speakers (an early model, 2001 I think.). That never really wowed, so I found some Totem Dreamcatchers that I put as the front speakers, got a second hand Focal centre speaker, and put the remaining Kef eggs as the rear surround speakers, 4 in all (2 either side of my seating position and 2 on each side about 2 metres away. The Kef subwoofer is to one side, but is pretty much independent of position and works fine.

I could not get on with the automatic speaker setup microphone thing on the Sony, so use the white noise hiss system to balance them to give equal volume at my usual sitting position.

The whole setup lacks punch and the surround sound is virtually non existent. I had a system a few years ago with a Yamaha receiver and a set of their speakers, which really delivered. So, how do I fix my current system?

My thoughts are that the Kef speakers are tonally bright, and thus bass punch is not there. Or, the surround speakers are too directional and minor movements during dusting etc keep spoiling the imaging. Would different speakers help? Is mixing the Totem, Focal and Kef elements just a beginners mistake as the AVR cannot drive them all to the same degree? The AVR itself gets good reviews, but nothing is safe at the moment as I would sell that on if it would cure the issues.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

You should be able to manually adjust the levels to boost the surround channel levels, which will increase their volume and make you more aware of the surround sound effects.

Try that first. If it doesn't satisfy, I'm afraid you're going to need to spend some hefty amounts of cash, first on "proper" front speakers, then, possibly, on a new AVR or a power amp to drive your front speakers, IF your current AVR has preamp output sockets on the back.

 

[Leeps]

It's not all about the volume of each speaker - it's about tonal matching too. If ALL your speakers were bright you'd mentally follow the shift of sound as it passed through each speaker in a typical surround sound set piece.

Mixing speakers is leaving a lot to chance - sometimes you can be fortunate and it'll work... I've heard it well described before this way: visually you see someone riding a motorbike left to right across the screen. Sonically however, the rider changes from 1000cc vee-twin to moped back to 1000cc vee-twin again, just because you have a comparatively weedy and poorly matched centre channel. Again, nothing to do with volume - the moped could actually be generating more decibels, but you get my point.

In terms of the 'wow' factor and seamless surround, I couldn't recommend the Monitor Audio Radius speakers more highly. They all use identical drivers and offer quite a varied range: standmounts, flush-mounted speakers and floorstanders, but are exceptionally punchy and dramatic with effects. I used to own a variety of combos in the Radius range - they all work beautifully with each other despite the differing cabinets available. Although I feel my current speakers sound better with 2-channel music, I have to say the Radiuses were the best at surround performance - punchier even than their technically superior Apex range IMO. I still have the Apexes and although they're more full-bodied, they don't quite have the same zip somehow.

I'd first of all ask yourself, do ANY of your speakers, with your current amp, deliver the sort of tonal balance you like? If so, then you have something to build on - simply try to use those same matching drivers around the room. Or take your dreamcatchers or amp to a dealer and try them with a few different combos until you're getting in the right ball-park.

 

[FunkyMonkey]

I would definitely rely on the calibration of the receiver.
Then when done use an SPL meter to app to match the volume of the speakers and change subwoofer level to your preference. Make sure the lfe is set to maximum.

The subwoofer placement will matter with those speakers as they are weedy compared to "proper" ones

 

[seemorebtts]

How big is your room

 

[Frank Harvey]

I haven't heard any recent Sony models, but the ones I heard many, many years ago didn't do it for me either. There's something about Yamahas that always have, for me anyway.

With regards to auto set ups on receivers, they're far from perfect. Levels are usually fine, but when it comes to bass management and sorting out whether a speaker is large/small and a suitable crossover point, they seriously lack, especially Audyssey. I'd usually let auto set up do it's thing, and if the option is there, turn off the EQ - which isn't always the best option.

Crossover points are probably the main thing to consider. All speakers will have a point where they're quite happy playing down to, but after a certain point they're starting to flag. And mics can easily be tricked into thinking a small speaker that needs a crossover point of 100Hz is a big speaker capable of 40Hz. This is probably the biggest killer of sound quality next to incapable EQ systems.

What I would do is out the KEF eggs back on. The reason I say this, is that if the Sony can't produce a unified, homogeneous soundfield from five identical speakers, it's not got a cat in hells chance of doing it with differently capable speakers. I've had the eggs singing on the end of Yamaha receivers (admittedly usually their Aventage level rather than budget ones).

Dont underestimate amplification. It doesn't matter how small your speakers are, the dynamic capability of the receiver's amplification is going to help to give you that midrange slam and dynamism that gives film soundtracks a sense of reality - the likes of gun shots aren't governed by subwoofers (not in reality anyway). Your speakers can't make up for your amplifier's lack of, well, anything. And that includes processing and quality of digital to analogue conversion.

So first up, try and get a good sound out of just the KEF speakers. They're relatively easy to drive, so the Sony shouldn't have any problem with them. A few manual tweaks of the EQ system can also help bring out punch/slam too, if you know what you're doing...

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

It's not all about the volume of each speaker - it's about tonal matching too.  If ALL your speakers were bright you'd mentally follow the shift of sound as it passed through each speaker in a typical surround sound set piece.

 

Mixing speakers is leaving a lot to chance - sometimes you can be fortunate and it'll work...  I've heard it well described before this way: visually you see someone riding a motorbike left to right across the screen.  Sonically however, the rider changes from 1000cc vee-twin to moped back to 1000cc vee-twin again, just because you have a comparatively weedy and poorly matched centre channel.  Again, nothing to do with volume - the moped could actually be generating more decibels, but you get my point.

 

In terms of the 'wow' factor and seamless surround, I couldn't recommend the Monitor Audio Radius speakers more highly.  They all use identical drivers and offer quite a varied range: standmounts, flush-mounted speakers and floorstanders, but are exceptionally punchy and dramatic with effects.   I used to own a variety of combos in the Radius range - they all work beautifully with each other despite the differing cabinets available. Although I feel my current speakers sound better with 2-channel music, I have to say the Radiuses were the best at surround performance - punchier even than their technically superior Apex range IMO.  I still have the Apexes and although they're more full-bodied, they don't quite have the same zip somehow.

 

I'd first of all ask yourself, do ANY of your speakers, with your current amp, deliver the sort of tonal balance you like?  If so, then you have something to build on - simply try to use those same matching drivers around the room.  Or take your dreamcatchers or amp to a dealer and try them with a few different combos until you're getting in the right ball-park.

My Ducati 916 (bought new August 1997) NEVER sounded like a moped!

 

[NJB]

The room is 4m deep, but wide at 8m.

I am thinking of changing the receiver as it does not do 4K pass through for my TV. The reviews on Whathifi are pushing me towards Denon. However, My last Yamaha was decent and so I might show a bit of brand loyalty for a change!

 

[seemorebtts]

The room is 4m deep, but wide at 8m.

 

I am thinking of changing the receiver as it does not do 4K pass through for my TV.  The reviews on Whathifi are pushing me towards Denon.  However, My last Yamaha was decent and so I might show a bit of brand loyalty for a change!

it's quite a large room.i hope you have your speakers 4m by 4m so to make it even.its always best to keep the same Speaker's instead of all different.i would sell what you have and look at Peter Tyson as they are selling the KEF q500 at £350 and matching center speaker for £180 and rear £189.you will need a new amp for 4k and the Yamaha is a good choice.i prefer onkyo myself but maybe a demo will help.this is just a suggestion for great sound on a budget.but if you have the cash i would go for Dali surround package at £900.this will give you the punch you are after.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

13 ft ish deep x 26 ish is large but it's not a church hall, let alone the Albert Hall!

I suspect the problem may be that you're set up with the TV along a "long" wall and that you're watching "across" the room rather than "along" it.

If so, your side and /or rear speakers are going to be a very long way away from your couch, and that could be your problem. Try moving your side and /or back speakers closer to the couch. If that improves things, there's your answer. You just have to decide if you can live with speakers on stands and cables across (or under) the carpet.,..

 

[macdiddy]

so you don't have speakers on stands in the middle of the room, you place your speakers where the instruction book suggests and then measure the distance to the listening position, input the results into the setup menu (auto/manual) on the a/v amp and hey presto the amp delivers the right amount of delay to create a convincing surround effect.

Personally I think the op's problem is with his Sony amp, I've never had any good recomendations when asking about Sony amps (too bright is the usual comment), instead all the dealers I speak to recommend Yamaha amps for their sound quality instead.

*music2*

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Within reason.

Sound disperses with (I think) distance squared, so if you double the normal listening distance you'll drop the sound level to one quarter.

Most domestic AVRs (and most surround speakers) cant produce anything like the decibels needed for a super-wide room.

In extremis, think of renting Wembley stadium, putting your TV on the halfway line and your surround Sund speakers inside the goalposts.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

PS

According to an on line calculator 100 dB at 1 metre drops to 88 dB at 4 metres.

And if I remember correctly a 3dB drop amounts to a halving of "loudidity", so 13 dB is one heck of a drop....

 

[newlash09]

Is the culprit here. I had the next year model, the str-dn 850 driving the well regarded qacoustics Q7000i package. And it all sounded under whelming. The Sony's auto calibration and room correction is non existent or it just doesn't work. Even after setting up all my speakers with a level meter. It still sounded disappointing. There was no element of cohesion or a sound stage to speak of. Every speaker was just doing its own thing.

As the q7000i were well regarded. I changed to a marantz SR6011. Upon completing the audessey setup with my speakers in the excat same location. All I can say is wow..... It sounds beautiful for both movies and music. So I would strongly recommend changing that Sony amp first.

Those kef eggs are very well regarded. So you can put them back in place and calibrate with whatever new amp you get. I tried mixing various speakers I have at home, including using the concept 40's are fronts. But the sound field gets upset due to different speakers having different scale. So I just stuck with identical Q7000LRi for all 5 speakers. From my experience, 5 identical modest speakers will sound better than different better speakers in a surround system. So try putting back your identical eggs in a 5.1 setup with the new amp. Maybe you don't have to spend on new speakers at all.