Usefulness of the turntable reviews in What Hifi

[Albion59]

Not being able to post this message to those responsible for the turntable reviews, I was left no other choise to post it in the forum.

The reviews in What Hifi regarding turntables are rather useless as long as no real technical figures are mentioned. The most annoying omission in all reviews is failing to mention the wow and flutter figures. Without these published, the review is useless. Hence the average of 5 star awards for nearly all turntables listed.

So, a real testing set up is a must in order to obtain a honest comparison between analog equipment turntables are. Wow and flutter perhaps are not important in the digital world, in the analog world they are. For those who grew up with turntables and other analog equipment these wow and flutter figures were the way how to distinguish the good from the average. I'm sure the novices who want the best of analog reproduction are helped if What Hifi is going to publish these important data.

A warning for those not familiar with analog reproduction: a weighted wow and flutter figure of more than 0.15% is AUDIBLE...........! Be warned also for manufacturers who fail to mention these utterly important figures in their technical specs.

 

[chebby]

What Hi-fi? don't have test facilities to measure equipment. They can only pass on manufacturer's specifications (if they are provided).

Not all turntable manufacturers provide the information you are after on their websites. (Although Pro-ject were the exception from the selection of obvious TT companies I checked just now.)

Some magazines do test equipment (Hi-fi News and Record Review for instance) but I don't think WHF? employ reviewers with the kind of technical backgrounds/knowledge to do more than pass on what manufacturer's product pages / marketing packs tell them regarding measured performance.

When this sort of subject has arisen before, it was claimed that more readers would be turned off by lab testing than those who would welcome it.

 

[The_Lhc]

When this sort of subject has arisen before, it was claimed that more readers would be turned off by lab testing than those who would welcome it.

I don't think it needs to be claimed, just look at the circulation figures of all the magazines that publish detailed test measurements and compare them to WHF. That's if you can find any that are still in business.

As for novices finding wow and flutter figures useful, I doubt any real novice would have the faintest idea what they were.

 

[Al ears]

I would tend to agree that figures can be useful but as The_Lhc points out to many novices, and don't get me wrong here, but these are the ones likely to be getting their information from WHFSAV, could read nothing into them. Obviously any major failings in the build quality / sound department would and should be covered in a basic review

In the price range generally dealt with be WHF the figures are much of a muchness. It is not until you get into the mid to upper price ranges for turntables that the resolution of your system as a whole comes into effect and the measurements become more meaningful.

If you are looking at getting a turntable of this calibre then their are other publications that should be looked at in preferance to WHFSAV.

 

[Albion59]

Thing is that some products listed probably would not have passed if the figures were published. I mean, if a manufacturer brings out a new product than he should not be ashamed to open up about the specs at all. Even if nobody understands what those figures mean, something I doubt very much as a matter of fact. What's more, a potential buyer simply deserves to be informed adequately. Many who read these pages simply trust what's published, certainly the novices. Hence overpriced products like ION manage to pass tests, getting three stars......The wow and flutter these toys produce are well over 0.5%. Not to mention the awful construction and the fact that all your records will be ruined even after just one play.

Publishing data will force potential buyers to learn about what they mean. And only then real quality will stand out from the average. Like it should be and like it was in the days when honest comparisons were possible.

 

[Albion59]

In addition to what I initiated, I have searched the internet and came across a test in the HIFI CHOISES' june 2013 issue that is full of turnable babble.

Reviewed among others was the Audio Apprentice TT1 turntable. It failed........on just one, yes one, aspect. You guessed it, the wow and flutter figures. This tt was also reviewed in these web pages. There it received, you probably guessed this one too, yeb, the full 5 stars....That's what I mean. Now I don't encourage the publication of all figures as done in the test reports in HIFI CHOiSE, by doing that maybe some will be scared off and stay with cd. Just the wow and flutter and speed accuracy would do as these are the most challeging quality goals a manufacturer should try to achieve. Most other figures will probably be not a problem for most manufacturers who want to bring a serious product on the market. So no graphics, no difficult talk, just a few figures just to compare, that's all. Not too much to ask for isn't it?

 

[nima]

You're missing the point IMO. I bet Lenco L-3807 at 250GBP beats the krap out of LP12 in W&F figures or any other suspended rubber belt-driven deck.

And I don't see a reason why Keeled LP12 would be much better regarding W&F then basic Sondek. Just listen.

 

[georgecostanza]

I would also care more about how something sounds then every little techincal detail . I really dont want WHF becoming like the Steve Hoffman site, where people publish graphs and spectral arrays of thier latest album .

 

[MajorFubar]

There's a place for both I suppose, but my point was, if WHF felt their review-sample sounded up to scratch then I don't really care about how it measures because any important measurements on that sample on that day must at least have been satisfactory, including wow and flutter.

 

[MajorFubar]

Frankly I don't care how something measures if it sounds good, but there are correlations. If HiFi Choice's sample of the Audio Apprentice TT1 received a mediocre verdict, then that's presumably because its poor measurements had a detrimental effect on its SQ. If they didn't have a detrimental effect on the SQ and it did infact sound great, then frankly that's a worthless review of interest to no-one but geeks with meters, as well as being a misleading verdict. But chances are, they did effect the SQ. Maybe it was just a duff sample. WHF's sample of the same turntable got five stars for overall sound quality, so ergo we can surely assume that it didn't suffer from any important defects, even though they didn't measure it.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I don't think I have ever been asked the wow and flutter figures for a turntable ever, and I don't remember being interested in those figures since I was dreaming of a full Technics rack system back in school in the early 80's. I don't think I have heard a turntable where it has even been noticeable, except for when a turntable has had some sort of fault.

 

[Al ears]

I agree with MajorFubar. If you want facts and figures go to a publication / website that produces them.

 

[Albion59]

I remember when I heard wow and flutter for the first time. Before, I thought my tt (Pioneer PL 12D) sounded just alright until I heard the femomena for the first time. And once you're trained you will know exactly how to recognise it. My point is, of all figures wow and flutter are the most important figures to find out. Because these figures tell you something about how a device is constructed and/or adjusted. Ofcourse, nothing is perfect and the occasional monday morning product will show up every now and then. I regard a wow and flutter figure around 0.1% weighted to be the absolute maximum for a turntable. The best way to find out how a turntable performs is, apart from figures, to listen how a well recorded and pressed classical record sounds on the turntable you want through a good pair of speakers. Preferably piano, this instrument can't vibrate soundwise and should sound absolutely free from flutter. Sometimes, when I visit the local hifi store and a turntable is playing, I see people listen to a record that is off centered. They don't even hear it or have the faintest idea what I'm talking about when I make a remark to the demonstrating staff. That's what I mean when I say that the novices must be protected and have a right to obtain a decent product without having to worry about things they know nothing about. Unfortunately, most younger people rely on internet rather than the printed press.

I have worked in a hifi store on the weekends for quite some time and turntables and everyting asociated with them were my specialty. I did this until 1985. We carried Denon, Tandberg, Thorens, Dual, Technics, National, Luxman, B&W, KEF, Nakamichi, Pioneer, Stanton, Pickering, Ortofon, Goldring and a few more. Those were the days!