Upgrade streaming source for Naim SuperNait

[Dan Turner]

I'm currently running a Sonos ZP90 into my Naim SuperNait via coax and whilst I'm very happy with the sound that I'm getting I have this niggling feeling that the quality of the Sonos and/or the DAC built in to the SuperNait, whilst being good, may not be doing justice to the rest of my system. I'm wondering what new streaming source to save up for (prior to demoing) and 3 main contenders spring to mind.

1. the Yamaha NP-S2000. I saw Andrew E's excellent review on Gramaphone, and the fact that he got such great resuts feeding his SuperNait obviously peaked my interest.

2. Naim NDX - Obviously this is what I aspire to, but at £3k I'm going to be saving for an awfully long time, and I'd be interested in knowing exactly how much better it is than the Yamaha.

Andrew - if you read this, having compared both using your SuperNait, as I see from the Gramaphone reviews, I'd be really interested in your opinion of their comparative performance, and whether the NDX is worth twice the price in your opinion?

3. Naim DAC fed by my Sonos ZP90 - I don't particularly want to supplement my Sonos with an alternative device for streaming in the lounge as the Sonos interface is just perfect an i'm using it throughout the house, so this route is very appealing (plus if I bought the Yamaha or NDX i'd just have to buy an iPad to control it). However I don't want to do this and then always be wondering if the Sonos is still a limitation sonically. Sound quality and VFM are the key drivers for me.

Cheers,

Dan

 

[noogle]

I'd vote for option 3. The NDAC has asynchronous inputs and will remove the jitter from the Sonos' output, giving you excellent sound quality.

 

[Dan Turner]

I'd vote for option 3. The NDAC has asynchronous inputs and will remove the jitter from the Sonos' output, giving you excellent sound quality.

Thanks noogle. I have to say that is my front runner at the moment I think.

 

[Rich27]

Whilst the dac in the SN is good it isn't great and this will ultimately become your limiting factor. NDX is fantastic (but pricey) and you could still feed your sonos into it if you so wished. If Naim is your thing don't forget they are due to announce a new digital product at the summer roadshows starting in a few weeks time, so may be worth waiting to see what this is.

 

[noogle]

Not sure how plugging the Sonos into the NDX improves on plugging the Sonos into the NDAC?

 

[Dan Turner]

Whilst the dac in the SN is good it isn't great and this will ultimately become your limiting factor. NDX is fantastic (but pricey) and you could still feed your sonos into it if you so wished. If Naim is your thing don't forget they are due to announce a new digital product at the summer roadshows starting in a few weeks time, so may be worth waiting to see what this is.

Thanks Rich. I guess I'd be up for the NDX if the quality of using the streamer/renderer part of the NDX was substantially better than the Sonos (both using the NDX's DAC) - otherwise I might as well just get the nDAC. I might have to do a comparison to judge whether the NDX is better (and better enough) than Sonos + nDAC

I will definitely hang on to see what Naim's new product is (it will take me a while to save up anyway!)

Thanks

 

[Rich27]

Not sure how plugging the Sonos into the NDX improves on plugging the Sonos into the NDAC?

I didn't say it did, I was just suggesting another alternative, one which the OP was already considering. However, I did own a Naim Dac for just over a year and imho, upnp > NDX was an improvement over sonos > Naim Dac (the reason I traded my Naim Dac for an NDX). I still use the Sonos into the NDX for spotify only.

You may find different so extensive auditioning is the only way to find out. I can only opine on that which I have direct experience so my comments are based on the actual kit I have owned.

 

[Rich27]

Also Dan, just get the ipad2 anyway, sonos app is awesome!

 

[Dan Turner]

Also Dan, just get the ipad2 anyway, sonos app is awesome!

Ah I got a CR200 controller a while back. I think I'd get into some serious trouble if I got an ipad!

I'm really interested in your thoughts on the sound quality of the sonos into NDX (assume you're doing that digitally) versus the NDX itself? And crucially you felt that NDX was better-enough than sonos + nDAC to justify an extra £1k?

 

[Rich27]

To be honest I have never tried the Sonos plugged into the NDX, I just have it connected via coax to the Supernait. I only ever use the Sonos for listening to new stuff via Spotify so I figured that would do. Allegedly, the NDX sounds better with digital inputs/outputs turned off, however, for us mere mortals I doubt it makes any difference. I am however too lazy to experiment as 95% of my listening is done upnp to the NDX or on the CDX2!

I thought the NDX streaming directly from the NAS was worth the change over the Naim Dac >Sonos. I was lucky enough to borrow a brand new unit from my dealer and so did the comparison at home. You really must try this for yourself to form your own view. Aesthetics also played their part to some extent if I am honest, the Naim Dac was really letting the side down and now I have three lovely classic series boxes!!

Would be interesting to hear something like the new Cambridge Audio streamer into the Naim Dac as well, but I really think I am finally spent on the upgrading front for a long long time.

A Naim Dac went for about £1,300 on ebay last week, prices seem to be dropping as there are a few of them around second hand.

 

[Dan Turner]

Cheers Rich. Once I've saved up some dosh, I'll definitely get demoing.

 

[Anonymous]

Dan I can assure you that you are missing nothing. Having spent 3 days testing Naim gear with different speaker combinations I can tell you that there is absolutely no discernable difference between and NDX running into an XS and a Sonos ZP90 running into an XS. Do the test yourself. Go to your local dealer and get him play the Sonos through a SuperNait and then an NDX. I may be wrong and the SuperNait somehow brings the NDX "alive" but certainly there is no difference running the 2 into an XS and I really mean NONE.

Sit back, listen to your Sonos and enjoy the music, you are missing nothing.

 

[Dan Turner]

Thanks Talkingdrum. You experience is encouraging, although it runs contary to most I have to say. Were you using a DAC with the Sonos, or just plugging it analogue into the XS?

Cheers

 

[manicm]

If you're prepared to spend 2k on a Naim DAC, as good as it is, think twice. Head over to the Naim forums and many regard the NDX so highly they're not sure about the benefits of adding the nDAC.

If I were in your position, and multiroom is not a priority, I'd save up for a bit, flog the Sonos and get the NDX. The NDX, like the nDAC, also has digital inputs and a digital iPod usb socket. Plus you can add an optional FM/DAB tuner.

 

[manicm]

Dan I can assure you that you are missing nothing. Having spent 3 days testing Naim gear with different speaker combinations I can tell you that there is absolutely no discernable difference between and NDX running into an XS and a Sonos ZP90 running into an XS. Do the test yourself. Go to your local dealer and get him play the Sonos through a SuperNait and then an NDX. I may be wrong and the SuperNait somehow brings the NDX "alive" but certainly there is no difference running the 2 into an XS and I really mean NONE.

Sit back, listen to your Sonos and enjoy the music, you are missing nothing.

We all have different ears, but from every review I've read the NDX is possibly one of the best streamers on the market bar the exponentially pricier Linn Klimax DS.

Also, to my mind, adding a 2k DAC to the Sonos doesn't make sense. I'm not knocking the Sonos at all, but the DAC is but only one link in the streaming chain, and there are limitations to extending only one link to the extreme without changing others. You're simply not going to hear the benefits of adding a 2k device to improve the sound of a 300 quid source.

I would say if Dan really wants to improve the sound he needs to upgrade the main source i.e. his streamer. Alternatively I'd rather save 1500 quid and get the Rega DAC.

 

[Anonymous]

Indeed we do all have different ears and I'm not going off "...what I have read" I'm going off what I have heard. Go to your local dealer, do the comparison yourself then come back here and make the case for spending 3k on an NDX, until that time you have no opinion to give.

In answer to Dan the Sonos was just plugged straight into the XS as was the NDX. The way it was set up was that I had the same music playing simultaneously from both devices into the XS and I could switch from one to the other instantaneously and I can tell you there is NO difference, not one iota. I spent 3 days with this dealer demoing different gear for which I am very grateful for his time and patience (I think the B&W PM1 sound fantastic by the way) and we discussed the tonal differences of different amps and set ups. When running the Sonos/NDX test he had nothing to say other than to say afterwards he had never tried the comparison before. I had the control, I switched from one to another NOTHING CHANGED. Totally impossible to discern one source from another.

 

[manicm]

What was the streaming source when you did the demo? NAS? Files? Internet Radio?

 

[Anonymous]

The source was an Olive HD I believe but can't tell you which model

 

[manicm]

That may explain why you couldn't hear a difference. Frankly I'm shocked the dealer tested it this way. The proper way would have been to test rips on a NAS, then streamed to either the Sonos or NDX, using uncompressed/lossless files.

The Olive is NOT meant to be a server, and I strongly suspect using it this way compromises sound quality to no end. In fact no dealer worth his salt should have done this.

 

[Dan Turner]

I appreaciate all the advice and opinions.

Manicm - I am very tempted by the NDX, of course, but I wanted to compare Sonos/Naim DAC with NDX because even if i buy a better streaming source, I'll still keep the Sonos as it's part of a multi-room system, hence if there was only a negligible difference between NDX and the sonos into the NDX's DAC, then I might as well save £1k and get the NDAC.

But to be honest, it's all speculation without a demo. I think I need to save up the £3k and try out the various options at home.

I was really hoping to get some first hand experience of the Yamaha model I mentioned as well. Andrew has given it a glowing review on the Gramophone website, but I can't find any comparison between that and the NDX. At half the price of the NDX it is a tempting option.

Andrew has compared both and he has the same amp as me, so I'm still hoping he'll see this thread and share his thoughts....

 

[Anonymous]

Must admit that I don't know much about the Olive and I am making assumptions but don't know for sure that the source was the Olive. I'm basing my assumption on the fact that on the previous 2 days when demoing the Uniti and the NDX, when I accessed the music library on the ipad, of the various options on there I was told to choose the option that said "Olive" (that was in the "library" on the ipad, obviously in the settings the Uniti/NDX was selected as appropriate) so I'm assuming that's how the music library is accessed for the listening room. I had no hand in setting up the Sonos/NDX test so I don't know but I was led to believe with all the testing we did that we were using lossless rips (in fact had a couple of my cds ripped whilst I was there)

It's a store purely dealing in high end audio and I would be very surprised if their was some error in the was they are streaming audio for the purpose of demoing such equipment. The dealer explained that we were using the onboard DACs for both pieces of equipment and the volume control of the Sonos was bypassed so although it had been processed by the Sonos DAC it was a "pure" signal (in fairness to the dealer trying to push the NDX on me he could have made the Sonos sound worse by not doing that and he also used very high end cable).

Bearing in mind that there was also an Arcam external DAC wired up that somone obviously had been recently testing I can't believe that however they stream the music into the demo room it's as anything other than lossless rips. Sorry I can't be more specific about the exact set up but one trusts at a high end dealer that all the listening is done in the most correct environment possible otherwise what would be the point in going to demo anything?

 

[Rich27]

Indeed we do all have different ears and I'm not going off "...what I have read" I'm going off what I have heard. Go to your local dealer, do the comparison yourself then come back here and make the case for spending 3k on an NDX, until that time you have no opinion to give.

A bit dismissive don't you think, especially as by your own admission later in this thread, you have no clear idea of the source of the digital files you were listening to or indeed their format or quality!

I would suggest that if you could tell no difference between the analogue out of a Sonos and the NDX there is something very wrong with the set up, the Nait XS is more than capable of revealing the differences.

I have done the comparison in my own home with my amp and speakers and using the same high quality AIFF and FLAC files off my own NAS, so yes I believe I do have an opinion to give.

In any case Dan has been encouraged to do the comparison himself, he can then make his own judgements on whether the differences are worth it. I would hope that he can either do this at home or with a dealer who explains the details of the set up so that an educated judgement can be made.

 

[Anonymous]

Let me tell you how the comparison came about. I went to a Naim dealer (listed in their literature) for the purpose of buying a Uniti and finding a good pair of speakers to match. I liked the the PM1s . The dealer told me that he thought those speakers would be underpowered by the Uniti and that I would be better off with and NDX/XS combination. I suggested I could get the Uniti and if I wanted to upgrade with a power amp at a later date I could. He told me that most of the improvement in sound we were hearing between the Uniti and the NDX/XS combo was down to the NDX not the XS so it was important that I purchase the NDX.

I came away and went home and slept on it. In the morning I thought ok, get the guy to show me how much of the sound was down to the NDX. I phoned the dealer, told him I wanted to do the comparison and he duly set it up.

You're right, I can't tell you exactly all the other elements in the chain were (I do know we were listening to lossless rips), what cables were used etc but the point is this: a Naim dealer was not able to demonstrate to me any difference WHATSOEVER between an NDX and a Sonos streaming into an XS when he's trying to sell me an NDX. It wasn't a case of me sitting there and not hearing it and the dealer saying "surely you can hear how the soundstage just opens up" etc etc. He asked me what I thought and I said I can hear no difference to which the only thing he could say was that he had not tried the comparison before. Inevitably our discussion after that moved on to the validity of certain premium products pedalled to those willing to pay which I shall not repeat in this forum.

The reason for this post is that I very nearly (because I was on the verge of buying it) got ripped of for over £3000 (I would have to buy an ipad as well for the NDX where as the Sons comes with a perfectly usable interface). A Naim dealer could not demonstrate any difference between an Naim product and one a tenth of the price. Make of that what you will.

 

[amcluesent]

>A Naim dealer could not demonstrate any difference between an Naim product and one a tenth of the price<

Should have used 24/96 rips.

 

[Rich27]

Let me tell you how the comparison came about. I went to a Naim dealer (listed in their literature) for the purpose of buying a Uniti and finding a good pair of speakers to match. I liked the the PM1s . The dealer told me that he thought those speakers would be underpowered by the Uniti and that I would be better off with and NDX/XS combination. I suggested I could get the Uniti and if I wanted to upgrade with a power amp at a later date I could. He told me that most of the improvement in sound we were hearing between the Uniti and the NDX/XS combo was down to the NDX not the XS so it was important that I purchase the NDX.

I came away and went home and slept on it. In the morning I thought ok, get the guy to show me how much of the sound was down to the NDX. I phoned the dealer, told him I wanted to do the comparison and he duly set it up.

You're right, I can't tell you exactly all the other elements in the chain were (I do know we were listening to lossless rips), what cables were used etc but the point is this: a Naim dealer was not able to demonstrate to me any difference WHATSOEVER between an NDX and a Sonos streaming into an XS when he's trying to sell me an NDX. It wasn't a case of me sitting there and not hearing it and the dealer saying "surely you can hear how the soundstage just opens up" etc etc. He asked me what I thought and I said I can hear no difference to which the only thing he could say was that he had not tried the comparison before. Inevitably our discussion after that moved on to the validity of certain premium products pedalled to those willing to pay which I shall not repeat in this forum.

The reason for this post is that I very nearly (because I was on the verge of buying it) got ripped of for over £3000 (I would have to buy an ipad as well for the NDX where as the Sons comes with a perfectly usable interface). A Naim dealer could not demonstrate any difference between an Naim product and one a tenth of the price. Make of that what you will.

"Ripped off" is a bit harsh, you asked for the demo, he gave it to you, you couldn't tell the difference. Result you didn't buy it, so what is the problem?

The important point is that you couldn't tell the difference, it is not a fact that there is no difference. So buy the Sonos and be happy that you cannot improve on it, let others do the comparison and choose based on their listening experience. Everybody is a winner.

I would also seriously go to a different dealer if you went in looking for a Unity and his next suggestion was NDX/Nait XS without seriously understanding what you want to get out of your system and/or explaining a number of other options.