Turntable-based system recommendations?

[seandynan]

Hello all.

For Fathers' Day my wonderful daughters collected together various old bits of hi-fi I had lying in storage around the house and assembled them all in our front room so I could have somewhere to listen to music, like I used to as a teenager.

Despite being initially overjoyed, it quickly became apparent that my Goldring GR1 turntable had speed problems so I decided to treat myself to a modern, entry-ish level turntable.

I almost bought a Rega RP1 Performance until I saw a photo of the motor mount, which was essentially Sellotape. That build issue alone sent me to the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon.

I am generally pretty pleased with the Debut but, I notice there is a sort of rumble or something in the silence between tracks. It is really distracting and on headphones it is almost maddening. Here is a recording of it straight out of my amp into my laptop.

https://copy.com/7n2zy6B1nTNCjFA9

Any utter silence you hear is the actual output of the Pro-Ject Carbon with its stylus in the air. Then the stylus drops and you will hear a few examples of the noise between some tracks. Hear that swish + rumble-type sound?

Is that perfectly acceptable for a modern £325 turntable? Because if it is, I think I need to move up several gears, unless there are known mods I can make to the table to fix this? :'(

So, assuming I screwed the pooch with the Pro-Ject Debut, and with a budget of approx. £1500, please recommend me a good turntable + floorstanding speakers. I already have a 12-year-old Sony integrated amp but if you think I also need a phono pre and new amp then please feel free. I like my music with a mellow mid and sweet highs, and bass I can hear without needing to reglaze. FWIW the floorstanders I was looking at included the Cambridge Aero 6's and the Q Acoustic 2050i's.

 

[Al ears]

Hello all.

For Fathers' Day my wonderful daughters collected together various old bits of hi-fi I had lying in storage around the house and assembled them all in our front room so I could have somewhere to listen to music, like I used to as a teenager.

Despite being initially overjoyed, it quickly became apparent that my Goldring GR1 turntable had speed problems so I decided to treat myself to a modern, entry-ish level turntable.

I almost bought a Rega RP1 Performance until I saw a photo of the motor mount, which was essentially Sellotape. That build issue alone sent me to the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon.

I am generally pretty pleased with the Debut but, I notice there is a sort of rumble or something in the silence between tracks. It is really distracting and on headphones it is almost maddening. Here is a recording of it straight out of my amp into my laptop.

https://copy.com/7n2zy6B1nTNCjFA9

Any utter silence you hear is the actual output of the Pro-Ject Carbon with its stylus in the air. Then the stylus drops and you will hear a few examples of the noise between some tracks. Hear that swish + rumble-type sound?

Is that perfectly acceptable for a modern £325 turntable? Because if it is, I think I need to move up several gears, unless there are known mods I can make to the table to fix this? :'(

So, assuming I screwed the pooch with the Pro-Ject Debut, and with a budget of approx. £1500, please recommend me a good turntable + floorstanding speakers. I already have a 12-year-old Sony integrated amp but if you think I also need a phono pre and new amp then please feel free. I like my music with a mellow mid and sweet highs, and bass I can hear without needing to reglaze. FWIW the floorstanders I was looking at included the Cambridge Aero 6's and the Q Acoustic 2050i's.

Perhaps you might get more response if you re-posted this in the Turntables and LPs subsection of this forum. Just a thought....

 

[Al ears]

I'd suggest the old Sony is still good and, as stated previously, I would not worry about a phono preamp as you'll hear little benefit at this price level. If you want to go more modern I am sure you get something for it on eBay.

I think if your main source is going to be vinyl then a step up on the deck front might not be a bad idea. Cannot comment on your noise issue but if there is any then there is something wrong.

Get a dealer to check it out or sell the Debut on as you should get a good price for it or, better still, trade it up to at least a Project 1 Xpression Carbon UKX (about £580 I think).

If you need a modern amp upgrade then the Rega Brio-R is one to look at, partner this with the Cambridge Aero 6's and turntable and you should get the lot dfor around your budget.

 

[Petherick]

Are you sure the noise is not coming from the records?
Are they new or used? If used then it could be as a result of having been played on a turntable which was not as good as the current one. Or simply age.

 

[davedotco]

Morning.

This is pretty difficult as without having met you it is extremely difficult to know at what level to pitch my advice, it just depends how 'serious' you are.

The problem is that good vinyl playback is expensive, mechanical engineering usually is. Personally I would be looking to spend a minimum of £1k on the player, I have not heard all the cheaper models but those that I have heard are very dissapointing, they are poorly made, the noise problem on the cheap Pro-Jects is well known and the cheaper Regas have wonky platters and noisy motor mounts. You really do get what you pay for, with tuntables that has never been more true.

Last time I looked at players the Clearaudio Concept struck me as the cheapest player worthy of serious consideration, preferably with the moving coil cartridge, though this will probably be over budget. The Concept MM can be had for just under £1k and leaves you enough for a decent pair of speakers.

One thing that is rarely mentioned these days is that vinyl playing systems need very careful setup, turntable support and speaker positioning are critical, no exaggeration. Get this wrong and the sound quality you have just paid good money for will dissapear in boom and woofle.

With this in mind and given your budget, I would strongly urge you to think again regarding floorstanding speakers.

 

[matthewpiano]

You don't need to go as far as £1k for the turntable. The Rega RP3 doesn't have the issues that have been known to affect some RP1s and it is a considerable step up in performance. It also has the benefit of being upgradeable later on through adding the TT PSU and upgraded white belt (both of which made a worthwhile difference to mine). Of course, if you can stretch to an RP6, that comes with the TT PSU included and would be a great long-term purchase.

With either turntable, the Rega Brio-R would be a great choice. It is a simple but very involving and musical sounding amplifier, and it has a superb phono stage too. Whether you want to change the Sony amp depends on the model. If it is something entry-level like the TAF-E370, then I'd definitely look to upgrade, but if it is one of the QS or ES series amps it would be worth sticking with it. In that case you could buy an outboard phono stage such as the Rega Fono or the Musical Fidelity V-LPS.

As for speakers, it depends what you want. If you end up with a Brio-R, this amp will work well with most speakers including the Q Acoustic 2050is. I would suggest hearing speakers by Q, Dynaudio, Dali, and Rega, all of which will work well with the Brio-R and all of which are, above all, musically involving.

 

[Al ears]

Mathewpiano, if you refer to the OP's previous post you will see he has a SONY TA-FE230, an amp that I know nothing about.

I quite agree with Vladimir's spend a grand or more approach but that would leave the OP with no cash to replace the amp.

Rega have not made a good example of how to manufacture turntables (budget) due to poor quality and workmanship of some cheaper types and this has pushed more and more people towards Project as an alternative.

The turntable that I have listed is the minimum I would suggest the OP aim to spend and this would allow the OP his choice of speaker and the Rega Brio-R.

He could, of course, look at a decent second-hand turntable but this is a bit of a minefield if you do not know what exactly to look out for.

 

[davedotco]

You don't need to go as far as £1k for the turntable. The Rega RP3 doesn't have the issues that have been known to affect some RP1s and it is a considerable step up in performance. It also has the benefit of being upgradeable later on through adding the TT PSU and upgraded white belt (both of which made a worthwhile difference to mine). Of course, if you can stretch to an RP6, that comes with the TT PSU included and would be a great long-term purchase.

With either turntable, the Rega Brio-R would be a great choice. It is a simple but very involving and musical sounding amplifier, and it has a superb phono stage too. Whether you want to change the Sony amp depends on the model. If it is something entry-level like the TAF-E370, then I'd definitely look to upgrade, but if it is one of the QS or ES series amps it would be worth sticking with it. In that case you could buy an outboard phono stage such as the Rega Fono or the Musical Fidelity V-LPS.

As for speakers, it depends what you want. If you end up with a Brio-R, this amp will work well with most speakers including the Q Acoustic 2050is. I would suggest hearing speakers by Q, Dynaudio, Dali, and Rega, all of which will work well with the Brio-R and all of which are, above all, musically involving.

For once I am going to disagree with you. I was a Rega dealer for 20+ years but think the current product line up to be poor. The P1 is a poor replacement for the Planar 2 (being polite) and the P3 needs expensive upgrades to sound decent. I feel the P6 is a bit pricey and I have never had much time for the Rega cartridges, overall as you can see, I am not impressed.

Expectations and experience will vary, so we will all come to different conclusions, I do not doubt your expertese in this area and guess you must be getting good results, just putting forward a 'different' view.

Agree entirely with your Brio suggestion, can't think of a better choice under £500 but remain a bit sceptical about floor standers at this level, especially in a vinyl based setup.

 

[Al ears]

I think flooorstanders at this price level have progressed in leaps and bounds. If the OP has the space to accommodate them then why not?

Given that standmount speakers by definition perform best on a stand and the OP has a budget of say £500 then surely you are much better off spending the whole lot on a speaker rather than £300 on speakers and £200 on stands, or am I stupid?

Don't answer that last question, it wasn't meant literally.

 

[BigH]

I think flooorstanders at this price level have progressed in leaps and bounds. If the OP has the space to accommodate them then why not?

Given that standmount speakers by definition perform best on a stand and the OP has a budget of say £500 then surely you are much better off spending the whole lot on a speaker rather than £300 on speakers and £200 on stands, or am I stupid?

Don't answer that last question, it wasn't meant literally.

£200 on stands, you don't need to, you can get decent new stands for about £60 or used ones for about £30. There are physical problems with larger cabinets, I would not touch floorstanders at £500.

 

[Al ears]

I think flooorstanders at this price level have progressed in leaps and bounds. If the OP has the space to accommodate them then why not?

Given that standmount speakers by definition perform best on a stand and the OP has a budget of say £500 then surely you are much better off spending the whole lot on a speaker rather than £300 on speakers and £200 on stands, or am I stupid?

Don't answer that last question, it wasn't meant literally.

£200 on stands, you don't need to, you can get decent new stands for about £60 or used ones for about £30. There are physical problems with larger cabinets, I would not touch floorstanders at £500.

That was just to illustrate a principle. If you could find used stands for £30 I wouldn't like to guess their quality.

Perhaps you wouldn't entertain £500 floorstanders but this is about the OP, and he seems set on them. Perhaps he has a large space to fill, something he might not be able to do satisfactorily with £500 stand-mounts, who knows.

Granted there are physical problems with larger boxes but then there are physical problems with any box, it's all about compromise.

 

[bigfish786]

Before you spend a lot of money, it would probably make sense to get to the bottom of the issue first.

id try new/clean vinyl first.

id try the turntable on another setup, I'd also try to set it up (to the best of your knowledge) properly, make sure the tonearm is balanced correctly, and stylus force is optimum.

Personally, I have bought 2 lps recently that have a lot of background rumble on them, so, it could be something that simple.

Good luck anyway,

 

[BigH]

I think flooorstanders at this price level have progressed in leaps and bounds. If the OP has the space to accommodate them then why not?

Given that standmount speakers by definition perform best on a stand and the OP has a budget of say £500 then surely you are much better off spending the whole lot on a speaker rather than £300 on speakers and £200 on stands, or am I stupid?

Don't answer that last question, it wasn't meant literally.

£200 on stands, you don't need to, you can get decent new stands for about £60 or used ones for about £30. There are physical problems with larger cabinets, I would not touch floorstanders at £500.

That was just to illustrate a principle. If you could find used stands for £30 I wouldn't like to guess their quality.

What Partington Dreadnoughts not good enough for you. Many nearly new stands like Atacama can be found for around £30. Really used stands apart from a few marks are not going to deteriate fast.

 

[Al ears]

I think flooorstanders at this price level have progressed in leaps and bounds. If the OP has the space to accommodate them then why not?

Given that standmount speakers by definition perform best on a stand and the OP has a budget of say £500 then surely you are much better off spending the whole lot on a speaker rather than £300 on speakers and £200 on stands, or am I stupid?

Don't answer that last question, it wasn't meant literally.

£200 on stands, you don't need to, you can get decent new stands for about £60 or used ones for about £30. There are physical problems with larger cabinets, I would not touch floorstanders at £500.

That was just to illustrate a principle. If you could find used stands for £30 I wouldn't like to guess their quality.

What Partington Dreadnoughts not good enough for you. Many nearly new stands like Atacama can be found for around £30. Really used stands apart from a few marks are not going to deteriate fast.

Darn it, I was hoping to make a bit more than that when I sell mine. Perhaps if I sprayed them gold .......

 

[seandynan]

Many thanks guys! Lots of useful advice coming out.

To clear things up a little, I'm not hung up on on floor standers per se. I just fancied a pair and have never owned them before. I wanted to cure the brashness that happens when I turn up the volume on my current set-up. The volume knob on the amp only needs to get to 10 o'clock and I'm hearing uncomfortable "forwardness" on high-pitched vocals and guitar solo notes, and everything starts to smoosh together. I put that brashness down to my speakers (JPW AP3's, if anyone can remember those, a well regarded speaker from the early 90's but probably bettered by more modern alternatives).

That's when I turned to What Hi-Fi reviews and floor standers caught my eye. But I would be happy with stand mounters too, after all that's what I'm using now. I would re-use my metal stands so that isn't really a problem.

The turntable rumble noise discovery happened independently and made me stop to reconsider my whole set-up, as has the unexpected enjoyment I've had just sitting and listening to music all over again.

I'm not going to get into audiophile territory (much as I wish I could) because (1) I don't have the money, (2) at that level I would need to invest in room treatment at which my wife would probably draw the line and, more practically, (3) I may have grandchildren soon and already have two exuberant pets, so my heart would inevitably be broken.

I'm just looking for a sweet sounding set-up that won't make me wince when I turn up the volume or listen on heaphones.

 

[seandynan]

Are you sure the noise is not coming from the records? Are they new or used? If used then it could be as a result of having been played on a turntable which was not as good as the current one. Or simply age.

That noise is there on every record, whether new or old. It is defintiely worse on older, thinner vinyl so I think I'm hearing motor or bearing noise. And that is through a cork and rubber mat!

 

[seandynan]

I'd also try to set it up (to the best of your knowledge) properly, make sure the tonearm is balanced correctly, and stylus force is optimum.

Personally, I have bought 2 lps recently that have a lot of background rumble on them, so, it could be something that simple.

Thanks bigfish. The tonearm is set up to the best of my abilities. The tracking force is set to 1.75 grams accoring to my little scale, the cartridge is aligned properly by the protractor supplied with the turntable and the anti-skate is attached to the right part of the tone arm. And the cantilever looks vertical when it sits in the groove.

I'll listen to more LPs now just in case I happen to have picked a couple of rumblers by sheer bad coincidence!

EDIT: no, it happens with any LP I put on.

 

[seandynan]

Well, well, well. I was fussing with the platter and noticed that knocking my knuckles against the plinth made a 'tone' that sounded a lot like that rumble I was talking about. A bit of Googling revealed that this is a common gripe with Pro-Ject turntables. I removed the two screws and grommets holding the motor into the plinth and - hey presto - bye bye rumble noise. There is still a much lower frequency rumble (i.e. Rumble as it used to be called back ye olde days) but that's Pro-Gress.

 

[davedotco]

As I said much earlier, it depends a lot on just what you want to get out of your system. If you just want to play a bit of vinyl for old times sake it is pretty simple.

Isolate your ProJect as best you can and tweak the motor screws to give the best results, don't go too loose or you might well run into speed stability issue.

Replace your amplifier with one with a better phono stage and a more sensible volume control, a used Creek, Arcam or similar will do fine.

Revisit your speakers and stands, the JPWs are easily the best part of your setup, just make sure they are rigidly mounted and spiked to the floor. Job done at minimal expense.

 

[Al ears]

Well, well, well. I was fussing with the platter and noticed that knocking my knuckles against the plinth made a 'tone' that sounded a lot like that rumble I was talking about. A bit of Googling revealed that this is a common gripe with Pro-Ject turntables. I removed the two screws and grommets holding the motor into the plinth and - hey presto - bye bye rumble noise. There is still a much lower frequency rumble (i.e. Rumble as it used to be called back ye olde days) but that's Pro-Gress.

Apparently what you need is the SE upgrade kit (£25) which replaces those rubber grommets, also has pulley and belt by the look of it.

 

[seandynan]

Thanks again, guys, I really appreciate your advice.

I'm 99% certain I'm going to trade up from the Pro-Ject. I'm not going to waste more listening time (and money) trying to cure a design defect which I can't live with.

When you guys drop your stylii on your players, what do you hear? Just the hiss and crackle of the disc or do you hear some kind of motor noise that you accept as a side effect of running vinyl?

Dave: I have heard that said about the JPWs before, that they are a hidden gem. And they do sound good when the volume isn't cranked up. When I auditioned them they stood right out from the crowd, a no-brainer purchase. Do you know much about them? I have owned them from new and they were partnered with a Rotel amp back in the day.

So, back to the original topic! If you were me and had approx. £1500, what would you buy?

By the way, the Brio-R was tempting but I definitely need a headphone output.

 

[davedotco]

Thanks again, guys, I really appreciate your advice.

I'm 99% certain I'm going to trade up from the Pro-Ject. I'm not going to waste more listening time (and money) trying to cure a design defect which I can't live with.

When you guys drop your stylii on your players, what do you hear? Just the hiss and crackle of the disc or do you hear some kind of motor noise that you accept as a side effect of running vinyl?

Dave: I have heard that said about the JPWs before, that they are a hidden gem. And they do sound good when the volume isn't cranked up. When I auditioned them they stood right out from the crowd, a no-brainer purchase. Do you know much about them? I have owned them from new and they were partnered with a Rotel amp back in the day.

So, back to the original topic! If you were me and had approx. £1500, what would you buy?

By the way, the Brio-R was tempting but I definitely need a headphone output.

Ok, if you are prepared to upgrade the player and spend £1500-ish, then fair enough.

Firstly buy a good player in the 'just under £1k class'. My preferred option is the Clearaudio concept but the Rega P6 and equivilent level Pro-Ject packages such as the Experience SB are other options you could look at.

The Brio-r is comfortably the best £500 amp for vinyl replay, you can easily add a dedicated headphone amp to the rec/line outs, a Schiit Magni is just £90.

Final thing is that if you are spending this sort of money you must set up the system properly, turntable setup and support, speaker location and mounting are all critical, particularly in a vinyl based system, you need to be aware of this to avoid disapointment.

 

[seandynan]

...turntable setup and support, speaker location and mounting are all critical, particularly in a vinyl based system, you need to be aware of this to avoid disapointment.

Have you any more advice on this? My turntable is placed on a long coffee table which is a solid slab of walnut or something similar (it is a two-person lift to move it). The amp will sit on the coffee table shelf, about 10" beneath the turntable. My speakers are on metal stands at either end of the coffee table, about 6' apart and toed-in slightly to my listening position. I can move the speakers around to a reasonable extent. The Turnable's placement is slightly behind the speakers. The room is a slightly 'live' small living room, about 13' x 10' with painted brick walls, hanging pictures, two sofas, hardwood floor with large rug, big window with vertical blinds.

 

[seandynan]

What do you guys think of the Pioneer PLX-1000? Seems to be getting extraordinary praise for a 'DJ' turntable.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-4

That said, I have a 'audiophile' friend in work who uses a Technics SL1200 over his other, more expensive tables. He was almost embarassed to tell me.

 

[davedotco]

...turntable setup and support, speaker location and mounting are all critical, particularly in a vinyl based system, you need to be aware of this to avoid disapointment.

Have you any more advice on this? My turntable is placed on a long coffee table which is a solid slab of walnut or something similar (it is a two-person lift to move it). The amp will sit on the coffee table shelf, about 10" beneath the turntable. My speakers are on metal stands at either end of the coffee table, about 6' apart and toed-in slightly to my listening position. I can move the speakers around to a reasonable extent. The Turnable's placement is slightly behind the speakers. The room is a slightly 'live' small living room, about 13' x 10' with painted brick walls, hanging pictures, two sofas, hardwood floor with large rug, big window with vertical blinds.

As you discovered from your 'knuckle test', turntable setups are microphonic. Any induced vibration, such as music playing through the speakers, will cause the stylus to move and transmit mostly low frquency noise into your system. Such 'feedback' muddies the bass and gives a lumpy, overly warm sound that robs music of it's pace and clarity.

The turntable designers will attempt to minimise the direct, through the air vibration by careful design but vibration will also travel through the floor and furniture and this is what you have to deal with.

Firstly fix the speakers securely to the stands with bluetack, then spike the stands into the floor, this cuts down the transmission of low frequencies into the room structure.

Secondly avoid placing you turntable on heavy furniture, the heavier it is the more easily it passes low frequency vibration, leading to the problems described above. Best solution is a dedicated wall bracket such as those made by Pro-ject, Apollo and Rega.