Treble ambience

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davedotco

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Al ears said:
davedotco said:
Mentioned earlier, I can confirm that the Adam X-Art tweeter, an updated Heil Air Motion Transformer, is quite superb. Really only available as part of their active designs, I have no idea how the OP could integrate them into his system.

A more straightforward approach would be the Martin Logan Motion15, an exuberant, lively design with a ribbon tweeter, under £1000 and very enjoyable.
Along those lines the Elac range offer very similar qualities.
The Motion 15s are unusually sensitive for a speaker of it's type, both in terms of measurement and in actual use. The result is a much livelier product with a very open and engaging sound, the Elacs though are less sensitive and more neutral.

This gives the Motion 15 a bit of character, that might not suit everyone, they sound just a tiny bit 'american' in terms of presentation, the Elacs much more british/european. As a reference, the Rosebud hybrids sit farely neatly between the two different styles.

The folded ribbon tweeter in the Adams appears very similar to the Elac models, but in the Adam active designs it's precision line level crossovers, active drive and flexible tweeter level controls integrate the tweeter quite brilliantly.
 
CnoEvil said:
My post was not meant as any sort of criticism.

How lively the R300s sound, can be amp dependent. If the amp is warm sounding, or if it doesn't have enough control, they can sound bassy and dull.
Agreed, and it also depends where you audition them too. Obviously rooms sound different, and how the R300s (or any other R Series for that matter) are set up has a big effect on the end result - unfortunately there are too many dealers that will just plonk them down and leave you to it. I know how I like them to sound - punchy, energetic, detailed, and tight. Same with LS50s.
 

Electro

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Mar 30, 2011
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If you want space you need bass !

A forward upper mid and treble will sound ok for a short period but will sound very artificial after a longer period.

Deep clean undistorted bass is needed to balance an explicit mid and top end or fatigue and dissapointment can set in very quickly ( imo ) .

This is why I recommended s/h PMC's
 
Q

QuestForThe13thNote

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Agree with electro, but atc just as good on bass as pmc.
 

ellisdj

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Dec 11, 2008
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I dont want to cause a rukkass or offend anyone - people have preferences but I have not heard PMC have better bass than other speakers, or deeper bass per se.

I actually wonder if they sacrifice upper bass presence for extension with their speaker designs all based around the transmission line - just a thought, not a criticism.

Bass in general inc extension is going to be largely determined by the room and listening position anyway so I dont see how any speaker has an advantage over another - its just pressure at the end of the day
 

Electro

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Mar 30, 2011
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ellisdj said:
I dont want to cause a rukkass or offend anyone - people have preferences but I have not heard PMC have better bass than other speakers, or deeper bass per se.

I actually wonder if they sacrifice upper bass presence for extension with their speaker designs all based around the transmission line - just a thought, not a criticism.

Bass in general inc extension is going to be largely determined by the room and listening position anyway so I dont see how any speaker has an advantage over another - its just pressure at the end of the day
Yes it's true that the majority of PMC peakers don't have the upper bass hump that many others speakers do especially ones with small drivers , I think this is one of the reasons I like them so much. When I listen to live music at a good venue the exaggerated upper bass or fake punch is nearly always absent.

The transmision line allows a smaller driver to behave like a much larger one so they keep the bass flatter in room across the frequency spectrum.

Large sealed enclosure with big drivers sound quite similar to transmission line speakers to me although I'm not sure not all would agree with me *smile* .

You are of course right that the room plays a massive part in how any speaker sounds and I have learnt a lot from you on that point !

I am not sure I agree that bass is just pressure, there is an awful lot of different texture's, pitch changes and micro transients/ dynamics in deep bass that many speakers ( & amplifiers ) completely smother .
 

ellisdj

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Dec 11, 2008
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Electro said:
ellisdj said:
I dont want to cause a rukkass or offend anyone - people have preferences but I have not heard PMC have better bass than other speakers, or deeper bass per se.

I actually wonder if they sacrifice upper bass presence for extension with their speaker designs all based around the transmission line - just a thought, not a criticism.

Bass in general inc extension is going to be largely determined by the room and listening position anyway so I dont see how any speaker has an advantage over another - its just pressure at the end of the day
Yes it's true that the majority of PMC peakers don't have the upper bass hump that many others speakers do especially ones with small drivers , I think this is one of the reasons I like them so much. When I listen to live music at a good venue the exaggerated upper bass or fake punch is nearly always absent.

The transmision line allows a smaller driver to behave like a much larger one so they keep the bass flatter in room across the frequency spectrum.

Large sealed enclosure with big drivers sound quite similar to transmission line speakers to me although I'm not sure not all would agree with me *smile* .

You are of course right that the room plays a massive part in how any speaker sounds and I have learnt a lot from you on that point !

I am not sure I agree that bass is just pressure, there is an awful lot of different texture's, pitch changes and micro transients/ dynamics in deep bass that many speakers ( & amplifiers ) completely smother .
My experience of good PA systems is the opposite of yours - they have tons of upper bass punch which always shows up small hifi speakers. Bigger drivers in pa so more presence in the upper bass region and into the mids. Same with big cinema speakers.

I think the design theory is one thing and maybe years ago it made more of a significant difference but if speakers are proven to have bass with low thd % and flat freq or equivalent I thinl KEF call theirs "equally flat" to how they want it I dont see how any can have a benefit over another just from it being a certain manufacturer - i.e buy these your gauranteed better bass, I dont think it works like that.

Other speakers dont have to have a hump in the bass to have upper bass presence either I dont think

I think in a limited volume single enclosure with minimal drivers and no dsp a designer will have to trade off upper bass for extension to a degree and vise versa. I bet its very hard to have it all without going big or seperate speaker and bass unit
 

Freddy58

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Jan 24, 2014
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CnoEvil said:
What you call "Flat and boring", I call refined and natural...though they do need an amp that takes control.

What you call exciting, I'd probably call too forward, tiring and in your face...which is why I don't like Naim.

As you know, hifi selection can't be done through someone else's ears.
Yep. It's weird, though, I have on occasion seen mention that they lack bass and are too bright, yes, really. In any event, I kinda get the "dull and boring" comment, stick 'em in a corner and they'll happily 'boom' away offering not much more. However, position them correctly, and it's all there, they just need some room to do what they are capable of. I've messed around with the positioning of mine, and I love 'em. A full soundstage, and very 'real', smooth and easy. Of course, some folks like a bit more... excitement, and to that end, I would suggest the OP gives the MA GX100's a listen (the latest incarnation being the Gold 100's). They were too much for me, but I like "dull and boring"
 

12oner

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Jun 16, 2020
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My post was not meant as any sort of criticism.

How lively the R300s sound, can be amp dependent. If the amp is warm sounding, or if it doesn't have enough control, they can sound bassy and dull.
Hi, can i ask how much power you think the R300's need to get the best out of them?

I've just bought a pair and running off my Audiolab 6000s (50 watts) I have to say that they do sound a bit lifeless to be also. The bass is strong, but doesn't have much clarity and the mids seem a bit flat, not that sweet.

I imagine maybe more power and a warmer amp would help this?

Thanks
 
Hi, can i ask how much power you think the R300's need to get the best out of them?

I've just bought a pair and running off my Audiolab 6000s (50 watts) I have to say that they do sound a bit lifeless to be also. The bass is strong, but doesn't have much clarity and the mids seem a bit flat, not that sweet.

I imagine maybe more power and a warmer amp would help this?

Thanks
Start a new thread. This one is three years old and some members might no longer be on the forum.
 
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plastic penguin

Well-known member
Start a new thread. This one is three years old and some members might no longer be on the forum.
Hope you don't mind, Al, but I can answer the above posters question in a little more detail, rather than starting a new thread.
During the hot summer of 2019, I was chatting to this pensioner in our village. He's into music so we struck up a rapport. He subsequently invited me around, and I took the Leema.
He had KEF R300 powered by a Yamaha A-S 300, which I believe was the entry-level Yam at the time. It sounded really good, but it has 85 watts per channel. When I connected the Leema up it took the sound to another level altogether. The Leema has 80 watts per channel.
For the OP I would be looking in the region of a Creek EVO 100, Naim XS, Roksan Caspian... any amp that's punchy and has a clean current.
 

gasolin

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Mar 17, 2013
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Hi, can i ask how much power you think the R300's need to get the best out of them?

I've just bought a pair and running off my Audiolab 6000s (50 watts) I have to say that they do sound a bit lifeless to be also. The bass is strong, but doesn't have much clarity and the mids seem a bit flat, not that sweet.

I imagine maybe more power and a warmer amp would help this?

Thanks
Class d
 

gasolin

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Mar 17, 2013
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A warmer amp would help this?

NO absolutely not it would just make it warmer


Class d often sounds more open clear than similar priced a/b amps, adding a tube buffer can give a slightly more warm sound depending on what tubes you use

 

12oner

Well-known member
Jun 16, 2020
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Hope you don't mind, Al, but I can answer the above posters question in a little more detail, rather than starting a new thread.
During the hot summer of 2019, I was chatting to this pensioner in our village. He's into music so we struck up a rapport. He subsequently invited me around, and I took the Leema.
He had KEF R300 powered by a Yamaha A-S 300, which I believe was the entry-level Yam at the time. It sounded really good, but it has 85 watts per channel. When I connected the Leema up it took the sound to another level altogether. The Leema has 80 watts per channel.
For the OP I would be looking in the region of a Creek EVO 100, Naim XS, Roksan Caspian... any amp that's punchy and has a clean current.
Hi, many thanks for this. I take back my reservations about the R300's, now powering them with the Roksan K3 they sound incredible! The bass is tight/controlled, soundstage, imaging is outstanding. They just needed a bit more power
 
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12oner

Well-known member
Jun 16, 2020
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Would you care to expand on that?
Hi just to advise I'm now powering the R300's with a Roskan K3 and they sound incredible. They sounded good in the high's and mid's with the Audiolab 6000a, but they needed that extra power from the K3 to control the bass better. Now the bass is tight/controlled, punchy, sounds outstanding.

Like someone else mentioned I think an amp of around 80w plus would suffice to get wonderful sound from the r300's.
 
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Hope you don't mind, Al, but I can answer the above posters question in a little more detail, rather than starting a new thread.
During the hot summer of 2019, I was chatting to this pensioner in our village. He's into music so we struck up a rapport. He subsequently invited me around, and I took the Leema.
He had KEF R300 powered by a Yamaha A-S 300, which I believe was the entry-level Yam at the time. It sounded really good, but it has 85 watts per channel. When I connected the Leema up it took the sound to another level altogether. The Leema has 80 watts per channel.
For the OP I would be looking in the region of a Creek EVO 100, Naim XS, Roksan Caspian... any amp that's punchy and has a clean current.
No issues, mine was purely a suggestion, carry on PP
 

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