Time for new set-up

Freddy58

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Hello folks
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In a few months time, it's my intention to set up a new Hi Fi system. I've been out of the scene for quite some time, so please excuse my ignorance. I have an old Rega Planar 3, and it seems like I'm going down the path of having the Inspire upgrade. I used to have a system based on my aforementioned Rega, Denon DCD500 disc player, a Kenwood KA660 amp, and a pair of Kef Concord speakers. To me, it was a system that I was very happy with. The bass in particular was a real feature. It never boomed, and was always controled and tight, but the 'wummff' was truly amazing, to my ears. Having said that, the treble was really crisp, and vocals were very engaging. It had a real 'springyness' if you get my meaning? All in all, I loved it :) The amp handled it with ease. So, at this stage, I'm drawn towards the Marantz 6005cd player, based on their musicality, the Marantz 6005 amp, as I'm partially persuaded by the compatibilty, and the Tannoys, Revolution DC6T's. I've not actually heard any of these, so it's all based on impressions, price and reviews. What I'm looking for, is pretty much what I had, something that will give me nice crisp tones, and plenty of 'wummff' when required. Any thoughts on my initial selections? Oh yes, it has to look good too, as I have to get it by swmbo :)

Cheers...Freddy
 

Jim-W

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I hate to state the bleedin' obvious, Freddy, but if you like what you have then why are you looking for something that will sound like erm what you have? Do you just want a change? Well in that case go for a totally different sound, perhaps something more forward and in your face. Otherwise, think about sticking with what you have and maybe just buy a new cart and some speakers. On the other hand, maybe you just fancy a bit of retail therapy:nothing wrong with that of course.
 

Jim-W

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Oh yes, silly me. I must read posts more carefully.Thanks, lemon. In that case, Freddy, go on ebay and buy the whole lot again. In all seriousness, the Tannoy's are great speakers but I rate Tannoy very highly; I've never heard a bad Tannoy speaker, given its spec and price. Marantz cd players are always excellent and the amps are smooth and have some clout.
 

ifor

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I just wouldn't consider a subwoofer. I think they're essential for an AV system comprised of little diddly things, but for HiFi stereo they're not for me. I do have floorstanders, but some stand mounted speakers can do great agile bass too, so just check some out.
 

Jim-W

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I agree. No subwoofer for me for music. AV, maybe. You should be able to get speakers that give you the required amount of bass and you can always move them about until you get what you want or use the less than fashionable tone controls on your amp.
 

Freddy58

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Hiya ifor.

Thanks for that. My only concern regarding floor-standers is that I might be a bit pushed for space. The room is around 11ft x 9ft, and there's a set of patio doors that the speakers will have to straddle on the 9ft wall. In essence, they might end up being a bit close to the walls.

I had hoped for more comments regarding my proposed line-up...
 

Freddy58

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Freddy58 said:
Thanks for that. My only concern regarding floor-standers is that I might be a bit pushed for space. The room is around 11ft x 9ft, and there's a set of patio doors that the speakers will have to straddle on the 9ft wall. In essence, they might end up being a bit close to the walls.

I had hoped for more comments regarding my proposed line-up...

Thanks fellas....
 

Freddy58

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Well, I went along for a listen to my proposed set-up of Marantz PM6005, CD6005 and Tannoy Revolution DC6T SE's. What a disappointment! I was expecting a lot more weight to the bass. The general clarity was very good, but it just seemed too lightweight to me. The speakers were switched to the Dali Ikon 6 Mk2's which were marginally better, but nothing to get excited about. Then, the amp was switched to the Marantz PM8005. The sound was a lot more muscular, but still no real umff at low frequences. In each case I turned up the bass, but that just made the sound boomy. Maybe I'm expecting too much? Maybe I'm just being nostalgic, but I reckon my old set-up was a lot better, which I'm really surprised at.

What to do?
 

davedotco

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Freddy58 said:
Well, I went along for a listen to my proposed set-up of Marantz PM6005, CD6005 and Tannoy Revolution DC6T SE's. What a disappointment! I was expecting a lot more weight to the bass. The general clarity was very good, but it just seemed too lightweight to me. The speakers were switched to the Dali Ikon 6 Mk2's which were marginally better, but nothing to get excited about. Then, the amp was switched to the Marantz PM8005. The sound was a lot more muscular, but still no real umff at low frequences. In each case I turned up the bass, but that just made the sound boomy. Maybe I'm expecting too much? Maybe I'm just being nostalgic, but I reckon my old set-up was a lot better, which I'm really surprised at.

What to do?

All well reviewed 5* product, must be you Freddy........ ;)

Just another example of someone coming, fresh and unbiased, to modern budget hi-fi. An awful lot of it, highly regarded though it is, really is not that good.

You have two choices really.

Keep trying different speakers until you find a pair that 'covers the cracks' and presents the music in a way you find acceptable.

Or, spend a little more cash on the electronics, a little less on the speakers if you have to, and get something that really works for you.
 

Freddy58

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Hiya Dave, thanks for that :)

"covers the cracks"? Seemed like a chasm to me. Another thing that struck me was how tacky the build quality is with the modern 'stuff'. Of course, this is only superficial, but it doesn't instill confidence. Considering I swapped the PM6005 for the PM8005 (which was better), maybe the CD player had some bearing on the lack of bass, although I doubt it. I didn't have a lot of time to try different set-ups, so I'll try some more next week, including a sub-bass or two. Boy, my old Kef Concord's were good!
 

davedotco

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Freddy58 said:
Hiya Dave, thanks for that :)

"covers the cracks"? Seemed like a chasm to me. Another thing that struck me was how tacky the build quality is with the modern 'stuff'. Of course, this is only superficial, but it doesn't instill confidence. Considering I swapped the PM6005 for the PM8005 (which was better), maybe the CD player had some bearing on the lack of bass, although I doubt it. I didn't have a lot of time to try different set-ups, so I'll try some more next week, including a sub-bass or two. Boy, my old Kef Concord's were good!

The lack of bass is primarily an amplifier issue, simply a lack of quality in all areas. Others will no doubt tell you different but you reacted in a very similar manner to myself, when I was looking at systems a year or so ago.

Don't worry about a sub at this stage, concentrate on the electronics, they will define the quality or otherwise of the system. Step outside the mass market and look at brands like Creek and Exposure. If you can manage without a remote, look at the Croft integrated, even the baby Naim pairing (not my favourite and quite expensive) will lift the performance to a different level.

Of course these components are rather more expensive than the Marantz but if you want quality you have to pay a bit more, tough, but thats the way it is. One thought, I have not had 'hands on' the new Exposure 1010 series but the 2010s are excellent and if the 1010s are even close they could be very interesting indeed given their competitive pricing.
 

Johnno2

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I beg to differ, I have heard some fairly high end stuff( mostly in shows and shops ! ) and lots of 'budget' stuff, while the high end stuff is generally better sonically and better built, its not always the case, I have heard well matched budget seprates sound more enjoyable with modern recordings than some high end systems,

I have owned the KA660D that the OP owned,yes its a budget amp ! I would bet on my life those Marantz amps are better built and sonically superior to that Kenwood, So the better sound must be a result of those old Kefs, then again the shop Tannoys have probably not been used much
 

JZC

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Freddy58 said:
Well, I went along for a listen to my proposed set-up of Marantz PM6005, CD6005 and Tannoy Revolution DC6T SE's. What a disappointment! I was expecting a lot more weight to the bass. The general clarity was very good, but it just seemed too lightweight to me. The speakers were switched to the Dali Ikon 6 Mk2's which were marginally better, but nothing to get excited about. Then, the amp was switched to the Marantz PM8005. The sound was a lot more muscular, but still no real umff at low frequences. In each case I turned up the bass, but that just made the sound boomy. Maybe I'm expecting too much? Maybe I'm just being nostalgic, but I reckon my old set-up was a lot better, which I'm really surprised at.

What to do?

Whilst I haven't auditioned the equipment that you mentioned I've had a similar experience with contemporary equipment.

I'm still using a pair of Spendor BC1's that I bought in 1979 and a Pioneer A616 amp bought in 1990. Although I still have a Sony CDP-XB930E CD player I now use a Marantz NA7004 Network player exclusively for the source and I am very happy with the sound. The Spendors particularly I would describe in a similar manner that you do your KEF Concord's.

However I would like an amp with remote control and smaller speakers would be easier to place in a better location and it would also be nice to have another system for our other lounge. Therefore I have occasionally been into HiFi shops and shows but have been disappointed with much of what has been demonstrated. It could also be that I've just become too accustomed to my current system.

Maybe as davedotco said it may be necessary to consider more expensive equipment outside of the mass market brands. Unfortunately it's been difficult to justify the cost when I already have a system that sounds good to me although I accept that others may prefer modern and/or more expensive equipment.

What I have noticed is that at the price level I have been looking at (£500 - £1000 excluding speakers) the electronics haven't sounded, at least to me ,much different whereas the speakers that they were played through did.
 

davedotco

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Johnno2 said:
I beg to differ, I have heard some fairly high end stuff( mostly in shows and shops ! ) and lots of 'budget' stuff, while the high end stuff is generally better sonically and better built, its not always the case, I have heard well matched budget seprates sound more enjoyable with modern recordings than some high end systems,

I have owned the KA660D that the OP owned,yes its a budget amp ! I would bet on my life those Marantz amps are better built and sonically superior to that Kenwood, So the better sound must be a result of those old Kefs, then again the shop Tannoys have probably not been used much

You are just buying into the hype around modern equipment.

Most of it is overated and really not very good. You really need to hear some decent equipment, preferably in your own home. Shows are a waste of time and rather a lot of todays dealers do not have a clue, if you heard a decent system properly setup then you views would change in an instant.

Other than 5* reviews there is nothing to suggest that the system auditioned by the OP has any merit whatsoever, it is no wonder that people buy 'all in ones' when the separates systems, like the one in question, are little or no better.
 

matthewpiano

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davedotco mentions the Exposure 1010 and I'd definitely recommend having a listen. It is a simple amp, with little in the way of features, but it is clear in use (and backed up by what Exposure themselves say about it) that they have retained quality parts where it really counts. The volume control tracks at low volume levels better than any other affordable amp I've owned and it also has a quality feel to it in use. The amp has a sense of ease in the way it powers my Dynaudios which can be attributed to Exposure using a high quality power supply. One magazine measured it as virtually doubling its output into 4 ohms.

The Exposure is a completely different proposition to the usual budget suspects like the Marantz. Since I got the 1010, I haven't had one moment where I've been distracted away from the music by shortcomings in the amplifier - something I haven't been able to say about most of the budget amps I've owned. The only amp I've had previously that came close was the Creek 4330R.
 

davedotco

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JZC said:
Freddy58 said:
Well, I went along for a listen to my proposed set-up of Marantz PM6005, CD6005 and Tannoy Revolution DC6T SE's. What a disappointment! I was expecting a lot more weight to the bass. The general clarity was very good, but it just seemed too lightweight to me. The speakers were switched to the Dali Ikon 6 Mk2's which were marginally better, but nothing to get excited about. Then, the amp was switched to the Marantz PM8005. The sound was a lot more muscular, but still no real umff at low frequences. In each case I turned up the bass, but that just made the sound boomy. Maybe I'm expecting too much? Maybe I'm just being nostalgic, but I reckon my old set-up was a lot better, which I'm really surprised at.

What to do?

Whilst I haven't auditioned the equipment that you mentioned I've had a similar experience with contemporary equipment.

I'm still using a pair of Spendor BC1's that I bought in 1979 and a Pioneer A616 amp bought in 1990. Although I still have a Sony CDP-XB930E CD player I now use a Marantz NA7004 Network player exclusively for the source and I am very happy with the sound. The Spendors particularly I would describe in a similar manner that you do your KEF Concord's.

However I would like an amp with remote control and smaller speakers would be easier to place in a better location and it would also be nice to have another system for our other lounge. Therefore I have occasionally been into HiFi shops and shows but have been disappointed with much of what has been demonstrated. It could also be that I've just become too accustomed to my current system.

Maybe as davedotco said it may be necessary to consider more expensive equipment outside of the mass market brands. Unfortunately it's been difficult to justify the cost when I already have a system that sounds good to me although I accept that others may prefer modern and/or more expensive equipment.

What I have noticed is that at the price level I have been looking at (£500 - £1000 excluding speakers) the electronics haven't sounded, at least to me, much different whereas the speakers that they were played through did.

Two things.

Firstly BC1s respond to an amplifier with a decent power capability, back in the seventies I had a pair that I drove with a modified Phase Linear 400 power amplifier, 273 wpc, rms, I kid you not!.

I had some guys around who all had serious kit, including some JBL owners. The power amplifier was tucked away in the cupboard so they had no idea what was going on. The knew all about the wimpy BC1s, or thought they did, Simon Kirke's drums on the song 'Bad Company' left them with their chins on the floor!

But I digress, the moral is that BC1s respond to a bit of power. A nice new amp with a bit of power and remote control, treat yourself.

Secondly speakers may 'sound different' but these are primarily presentational differences. The real quality comes from the electronics, and for that you have to pay a little more.
 

Blackdawn

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matthewpiano said:
davedotco mentions the Exposure 1010 and I'd definitely recommend having a listen. It is a simple amp, with little in the way of features, but it is clear in use (and backed up by what Exposure themselves say about it) that they have retained quality parts where it really counts. The volume control tracks at low volume levels better than any other affordable amp I've owned and it also has a quality feel to it in use. The amp has a sense of ease in the way it powers my Dynaudios which can be attributed to Exposure using a high quality power supply. One magazine measured it as virtually doubling its output into 4 ohms.

The Exposure is a completely different proposition to the usual budget suspects like the Marantz. Since I got the 1010, I haven't had one moment where I've been distracted away from the music by shortcomings in the amplifier - something I haven't been able to say about most of the budget amps I've owned. The only amp I've had previously that came close was the Creek 4330R.

Glad you've found an amp solution your keen on. Although, I'm sure the amp sounds great I couldn't live with an amp with limited features - such as no headphone output or tone controls (find these especially useful due to such large difference in album mastering).
 

Blackdawn

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To the OP - I think your KEF Concord speakers had a lot to do with it. You need to be happy with the speakers suited to the room and run them in well once purchased. When you demo you need to find a speaker you really like to start with (for me this is the most important key). Once you have the speaker find an amp that will run it well. Obviously, have an idea on the source you want to use too e.g. turntable, cd etc, but speakers are the key IMO.
 

Johnno2

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davedotco said:
Johnno2 said:
I beg to differ, I have heard some fairly high end stuff( mostly in shows and shops ! ) and lots of 'budget' stuff, while the high end stuff is generally better sonically and better built, its not always the case, I have heard well matched budget seprates sound more enjoyable with modern recordings than some high end systems,

I have owned the KA660D that the OP owned,yes its a budget amp ! I would bet on my life those Marantz amps are better built and sonically superior to that Kenwood, So the better sound must be a result of those old Kefs, then again the shop Tannoys have probably not been used much

You are just buying into the hype around modern equipment.

If by modern equipment you mean the budget end amps I still dissagree.... not saying most modern cheap amps are great, there is a lot of overrated stuff about such as cheaper NADs.. The C352 was the one of the flattest, most hollow sounding amps I owned. However, most budget amps in the nineties where even more dreadful, the KA660D was nothing special, a 60w pc budget amp retaling for about £200, I didnt keep mine long , yet the OP states it sounded wonderful in his sytem, which makes me believe the speakers have a lot to do with that whoophy bass

The Marantz, especially the PM8XXXX series should be much better,

I do now admit though to going for an all in one for digital, the Marantz MCR61, Tannoy V4, which is keeping me happy with endless music

However the best sounds at the moment are coming from my vinyl system which is a mixture of old and new, a vintage 1970's technics with a new AT440ml fitted . CA 651 phono, and some 18 year old AE109's all powered by one of those evil crappy modern amps in your eyes AS500

Yet this sounds very good, there must be some synergy going on here with the AE and Yamaha,
 

Freddy58

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Hiya folks, thanks for all the feedback.

Let me say straight off, I'm no expert, I only voice my opinion, so I'm probably talking nonsense :)

Regarding my old KA660, yes, it was a budget amp, which I bought in '88(?). But in real terms, I wouldn't have said it was cheap at the time retailing at £200, maybe two weeks wages? That equates now to around £1000. It did have a half decent pedigree, as at the time they had just taken over Trio, and one could buy the same amp with either the Trio or Kenwood badge. It certainly wasn't as refined as some, but coupled with those Concord lV's, it was the ideal match. Having said that, it might have been a different story with different speakers, I have no idea. I bought them as a pairing after being blown away when I heard the same combination that a friend of mine had. Maybe the fact that the Kef's were a 'closed' design was a factor? As I said ealier, they were never boomy, indeed, the bass was always under control, but the weight was incredible, to my ears. Indeed, there were times when the sound brought a smile to my face. As for the quality of components, I have no idea what was under the cover of the KA660, but one only has to turn the volume knob to see that certain things (at least) ain't what they used to be. As I said, the clarity of the stuff I tried today was very good, no complaints there, it just left me feeling flat and disappointed. I've had a look around, and I see that one can buy the equivalent drivers based on the B200's used in the Kefs, hmm :)

Cheers...Freddy
 
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JZC said:
I'm still using a pair of Spendor BC1's that I bought in 1979 and a Pioneer A616 amp bought in 1990. Although I still have a Sony CDP-XB930E CD player I now use a Marantz NA7004 Network player exclusively for the source and I am very happy with the sound. The Spendors particularly I would describe in a similar manner that you do your KEF Concord's.

Your CD player is fine, your network player likewise. The amp probably is as good as any of the currently sub-£500 gang, while I see the likes of the Pioneer A-676 cropping up on Ebay or Gumtree from time to time. Some of the old Sansui stuff is worth a go, but ca' canny with the pricing, some of which is seriously overpriced and off the wall.

Check speaker positioning too. Shifting them around somewhat, even by just a few inches either way, can work wonders. The Tannoys you've bought, like some many others, are tall, relatively slim and shy on bass. Some cost effective alternative are Q Acoustics magnificent 2050i at around £400-500, Pioneer's standmount S-71B (ignore at your peril, they'll provide plenty of thump and with some finesse too) anywhere from £200 to £600 depending on where you buy and probably a couple of others. I'd be very careful to just jump after the award winners, I would deinitiely urge you to do some reading up across the board. Better performance is out there, though I think you sold the Tannoy speakers short with the rest of the gear you fed then.
 

Johnno2

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Freddy58 said:
Hiya folks, thanks for all the feedback.

Let me say straight off, I'm no expert, I only voice my opinion, so I'm probably talking nonsense :)

Regarding my old KA660, yes, it was a budget amp, which I bought in '88(?). But in real terms, I wouldn't have said it was cheap at the time retailing at £200, maybe two weeks wages? That equates now to around £1000.

I think you have just reinforced my belief that modern stuff gives better sound per pound, if you go out today and buy a well chosen £1000 amp (todays equivilent price of a Kenweed 660) then I would place a bet the modern one would more than likely perform better . I would say the KA660 is similar qualty as something like todays Denon PMA720 or Onkyo 9030 whick can be had for for less than £200
 

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