The Hi Fi revolution

[admin_exported]

I recently discovered for myself and was shocked by the quality of music put from CD's onto a hard drive.
I compared against my highly (Russ Andrews) modified Meridian 207 CD/preamp and a Sony RDR970!

There was No Difference at all! Both sounded as good as one another, so now I have my CD collection on a Hard drive that I index off the TV screen.

As more and more people discover how cheap it is becoming to get excellent sounding music off sources I would have turned my nose up until I heard it with my own ears, it makes me wonder how the Hi Fi retail industry is going to adapt. It is getting harder to justify and sell the big ticket priced items when computer based hardware is so good for a fraction of the cost.

Of course the likes of Sony and Apple has perhaps lead this change. The PS3, ipod classic were bomb shells. With the miniaturization of circuitry all one needs now is an excellent power source, amp, kept well isolated from the dac, and hard drive unit. (even a PS3!)

Spend your money on decent designed speakers, spend a couple of hundred pounds fitting top grade crossovers to them (for that is the weak link) and you have 'High End quality'. To think in the late 1980's I spent £6000 on a pair of handmade reference MA6 mono blocks, ouch!

How times have changed

 

[chebby]

Some of the industry is beginning to adapt, a little bit. Musical Fidelity now sell a stand-alone DAC and incorporate one into their A1 integrated amp.

Naim have their HDX and the SuperNait has a built in DAC too.

Cambridge Audio with their DacMagic and built-in DACs on CD players (I forget which models.)

Linn have adapted (Linn DS, and no doubt other solutions but I am not up-to-date on their stuff.)

Others like Arcam and Rega are yet to react by including built-in DAC stages. (Although Arcam do a music £3K 'server' I am don't think this is going to help them at the more budget level.)

If ALL these companies included built-in DACs (or the option) in their amplifiers - with USB and optical connections - that would be a start. They should not be too expensive (no casework, no seperate power supply etc) and would allow everyone to at least hook up a PC/Mac, iPod etc.

Sadly though, I think even built in DACs (or optional modules) is going to be a step too far for the more 'conservative' elements of the industry. Can you imagine Rega building in Internet radio into a tuner or putting a DAC card into a Mira or selling an iPod dock?

 

[Anonymous]

Personally I don't think things are going to change that much, only the downfall of the CD player, streamers/PC audio is the future for me, you will always need high quality speakers and high quality amplifiers, this won't change, the changes are in the cable market and CD player market, people still love vinyl, tubes etc.

 

[PJPro]

I don't want to say I told you so......

 

[Anonymous]

I recently sold my c. 6k GBP system (Cyrus front end, Bel Canto amps, Dynaudio) and got a pair of ex dem AVI ADM9s for 600 quid, using my laptop as the primary source. I dont feel Im missing out on anything except a bit of low end extension (that a good sub would sort out). Happy days.

 

[Anonymous]

Right this is my main problems with computer based music and why it doesn't suit me:

1) I just built a new computer not long ago which has a top of the range (in excess of £200) Creative sound card which has already started not working in 32 bit mode, but will still work in 64 bit mode.

2) My computer is very noisy (it's watercooled and has a big radiator on the front) and it would wreck the background of music and become annoying.

3) Whereas I feel safe leaving a CD player which draws 15 watts on when I'm listening to music at night, I certainly wouldn't with a 1,200watt computer with a huge PSU and a huge mass of wires behind it.

4) When I buy a new album, I immediatly want to listen to it. All the way through. When using i-tunes or other media players, I find they pause a bit between tracks and for albums by Pink Floyd, Yes, Genesis etc...that's no good!

5) You tend to miss something when you get the CD or vinyl out of its case and place it, ready to be played when you listen on a computer. I think that "hands on approach" makes me enjoy music and appreciate the album a little bit more.

6) I may not be the worlds biggest eco warrior, but I do think that having a PC on all day that at peak draws over 1,200 watts is a bit excessive - we have solar panels which suppliment our electricity supply, but I alone would be drawing way over what they can provide with just a PC. My current CD player draws nearly 100 times less than that. My turntable half that again!

Am I backwards in my views, or do I just need to buy a Mac?!

 

[Anonymous]

I didnt realise Computers drew that much current, what about a laptop?

I used to have a pair of Bryston mono-blocs, the power consumption was frightening!

 

[Anonymous]

thfcwestlower:
I didnt realise Computers drew that much current, what about a laptop?

I used to have a pair of Bryston mono-blocs, the power consumption was frightening!

I do have a laptop (I'm using it now!) but the hard drive is only 75GB - I guess I could buy an external 1TB drive for it via USB and then conncet a DACMagic via USB too and listen to the results?

 

[PJPro]

Hughes123:
Right this is my main problems with computer based music and why it doesn't suit me:

1) I just built a new computer not long ago which has a top of the range (in excess of £200) Creative sound card which has already started not working in 32 bit mode, but will still work in 64 bit mode.

Ohh.

Hughes123:

2) My computer is very noisy (it's watercooled and has a big radiator on the front) and it would wreck the background of music and become annoying.

Use headphones or get something less powerful. You don't need a watercolled PC to act as a source. Most laptops run quiet. Alternately, get something like a Mini Mac.

Hughes123:

3) Whereas I feel safe leaving a CD player which draws 15 watts on when I'm listening to music at night, I certainly wouldn't with a 1,200watt computer with a huge PSU and a huge mass of wires behind it.

See the answer to 2).

Hughes123:

4) When I buy a new album, I immediatly want to listen to it. All the way through. When using i-tunes or other media players, I find they pause a bit between tracks and for albums by Pink Floyd, Yes, Genesis etc...that's no good!

Try Foobar2000. There are no gaps at all. I tried this with Floyd albums where the tracks bleed into each other and there is no gap.

Hughes123:
5) You tend to miss something when you get the CD or vinyl out of its case and place it, ready to be played when you listen on a computer. I think that "hands on approach" makes me enjoy music and appreciate the album a little bit more.

Hhmmm. Tactile experience? I like caressing the mouse as I move my cursor over the tracks....

Hughes123:
6) I may not be the worlds biggest eco warrior, but I do think that having a PC on all day that at peak draws over 1,200 watts is a bit excessive - we have solar panels which suppliment our electricity supply, but I alone would be drawing way over what they can provide with just a PC. My current CD player draws nearly 100 times less than that. My turntable half that again!

Am I backwards in my views, or do I just need to buy a Mac?!

See 2).

 

[Anonymous]

Sounds like you are into gaming!

I build and overclock my own PC's so understand what you are saying and agree with you!

However what I do is rip my CD's directly onto the 250b hard drive in my Sony DVD recorder which is virtually noiseless. It plays back exactly as it does in the CD player and I access the library off the menu. Done the same to the PS3 off my ipod classic.
Wouldn't dream of having a noisy computer next to the TV!

 

[Anonymous]

That is the most cost effective way of getting into the whole computer hifi I guess. I would connect an Airport express to wirelessly stream the music from your laptop to an optical input in the DAC. I didnt hear much difference between the Beresford and the DAC Magic.

 

[Tony_R]

It looks as though you have a PC optimised for gaming. My guess is that the vast majority of people here are perhaps referring to specialist media PC's and possibly lesser spec PC's than yours. My eldest son went through a phase of having a super duper hi spec PC for gaming and that too was extremely noisy, particularly when the fan for the graphics card kicked in.

It's certainly possible to get good music out of a much lower specified device, as not much CPU 'horsepower' is required for music playback. (Unless you want all the fancy 'virtualisation' graphics!!).

Creative sound cards seem to have a history of problems (as good as they are supposed to be..) as my son also had a fancy creative card (name of which escapes me) and he had endless hassles with that - not to mention the fact it wouldn't work properly with Vista, due to limited driver support. (I'm talking 14 months ago).

I appreciate what you mean by the hands on approach, and wanting to play the CD immediately - however I'm sure many of us will end up keeping a CD player for that alone! (Or use the HT DVD player...).

I'd be surprised if your PC consumes as much power as you think - have you tried checking it with a wattmeter (one of those plugin devices?).

And finally - I do have to agree that arguably the Mac currently reigns supreme for audio playback, certainly from an "out of the box" point of view. Mac's have also tended to be far more acceptable as part of the 'lounge furniture' although PC's are rapidly catching up in that department - e.g. some of the Sony stuff.

What about one of the Sony network players? I've seen one that resembles a CD player, has a built in hard disk, but can also connect to the LAN, and (I think) play music from the LAN too. I can't remember the model though, although it was retailing for arond £600...

Tony.

 

[Anonymous]

trevor79:Sounds like you are into gaming!

I build and overclock my own PC's so understand what you are saying and agree with you!

However what I do is rip my CD's directly onto the 250b hard drive in my Sony DVD recorder which is virtually noiseless. It plays back exactly as it does in the CD player and I access the library off the menu. Done the same to the PS3 off my ipod classic.
Wouldn't dream of having a noisy computer next to the TV!

That's what I may do then or I'll use PjPro's advice (thanks!) and try that other programme on my laptop via a DACMagic.

Thanks!

ps. Yeh, I'm into gaming but not as much as I was! My current PC has an AMD Phenom Quad 9850 which is 2.5GHz as standard, but I've got it up at 3.6 at the moment and it's running under load at around 29 degrees celcius!

 

[PJPro]

Tony_R:
Creative sound cards seem to have a history of problems (as good as they are supposed to be..) as my son also had a fancy creative card (name of which escapes me) and he had endless hassles with that - not to mention the fact it wouldn't work properly with Vista, due to limited driver support. (I'm talking 14 months ago).

My Creative XFi Xtreme Gamer works well. It provides WASAPI support (essential for good playback on Vista) and 44.1 kHz sample rate.

See this thread for more details on WASAPI, Xtreme Gamer and Foobar2000.

 

[Tony_R]

Wow I must be slow today - there were no less than 5 other posts whilst I was writing mine.

This is the Sony player I was referring to.

Tony.

 

[Anonymous]

Tony_R:
Wow I must be slow today - there were no less than 5 other posts whilst I was writing mine.

This is the Sony player I was referring to.

Tony.

Okay, I'm going to see if I can demo one of those (my local Sony shop will have one hopefully!)

PjPro, my soundcard is a Creative X-Fi Fatal1ty Pro.

 

[PJPro]

Does that player do FLAC?

 

[Tony_R]

According to the SuperFi website it's been discontinued.

And the recording formats supported seem to be rather limited.

Atrac3 66,105 and 132 kbps

Atrac3 plus 48,64 and 256 kbps

Linear PCM - I presume by that they mean a direct copy of the CD?

MP3 96,128,160,192 and 256 kbps

A bit limiting really, and probably why it has been discontinued....

Tony.

 

[chebby]

Hughes123:1) I just built a new computer not long ago which has a top of the range (in excess of £200) Creative sound card which has already started not working in 32 bit mode, but will still work in 64 bit mode.

So buy a more reliable sound card or better yet, an external DAC.

Hughes123:My computer is very noisy (it's watercooled and has a big radiator on the front) and it would wreck the background of music and become annoying.

So use a quiet, efficient computer built by someone who knows how. (My iMac and my Dell D630 laptop are so quiet you have to press your ear really close to hear anything happening and they both run cool.

Hughes123:Whereas I feel safe leaving a CD player which draws 15 watts on when I'm listening to music at night, I certainly wouldn't with a 1,200watt computer with a huge PSU and a huge mass of wires behind it.

As I said, get a safe, efficient, quiet and cool machine.

Hughes123:When I buy a new album, I immediatly want to listen to it. All the way through. When using i-tunes or other media players, I find they pause a bit between tracks and for albums by Pink Floyd, Yes, Genesis etc...that's no good!

That simply does not happen with iTunes. It takes a couple of minutes to rip any CD losslessly (with correction) to iTunes and when playing back the lossless files there are NO hiccoughs, pauses or anything like you describe. Never had this happen.

If you cannot wait for a couple of minutes for a lossless rip then that is whole other problem and nothing to with hifi or computers.

Hughes123:You tend to miss something when you get the CD or vinyl out of its case and place it, ready to be played when you listen on a computer. I think that "hands on approach" makes me enjoy music and appreciate the album a little bit more.

I play vinyl because it has a different sound that I enjoy but no 'fondle factor' here. I may even get an ADC soon and rip vinyl tracks and have them on iTunes too.

Suggest that the 'deficiencies' of computer based music replay are because of your equipment and not typical of what the rest of us are experiencing.

 

[Anonymous]

you will always need high quality speakers and high quality amplifiers,
this won't change, the changes are in the cable market and CD player
market, people still love vinyl, tubes etc.

Yes, but amplifiers will be combined with a DAC and wireless into the speakers. Separates as we know them are a dying breed.

 

[crusaderlord]

I pretty much agree with Hughes on this one.

PC's are generally very noisy things - since i moved mine to the cellar my living space is a lot quieter all round horay ! Laptops tend to be quieter from experience.

I too like CD's, i like to browse and choose what to play and also like to play a whole cd rather than jump between tracks and artists. I like the package you get with a well presented case, pictures, booklet etc

I am not totally CD only, i do see the relevance of a hard drive specific server if that what you prefer - although id take an audio make like Arcam or Naim rather than use a PC source. I do stream internet music through my wireless router via an i-touch and a r-dock and it is really easy to use.

So to me i think both will co-exist for a long time yet. Personally i will still prefer buying CD's and the great news is the prices keep on falling. You can pick up so many now of under £5 new.

 

[chebby]

Yes CDs are great and long may they continue. What do you think I am feeding my iTunes with? (95 percent of what I play comes from a CD that has been ripped losslessly.)

I am actually buying MORE new CDs since I started using them this way. We are not all downloading 128kbps MP3s!

I like browsing so I have stuff organised as albums and also as tracks and I have a great big 'jukebox' style playlist too with 'shuffle' turned on for all my favourite stuff. I also have all the cover art to flick through.

(There are also over 8500 internet radio stations and youtube and many other music/video sites, some with excellent quality.)

If I really wanted to read the notes then I can hoik out the physical CD from it's box but that would be very rare.

 

[chebby]

And just where are you all getting these noisy computers from?

We have an iMac, a Dell Inspiron tower and a Dell laptop and none of them are noisy.

I have not heard a noisy computer since everything went over to Intel Core 2 Duo a few years back.

Our Inspiron's fans barely come on at all even in warm weather and when the do you have to be within inches of the box to hear them.

 

[Tony_R]

chebby:And just where are you all getting these noisy computers from?

We have an iMac, a Dell Inspiron tower and a Dell laptop and none of them are noisy.

I have not heard a noisy computer since everything went over to Intel Core 2 Duo a few years back.

Our Inspiron's fans barely come on at all even in warm weather and when the do you have to be within inches of the box to hear them.

Chebby, the branded kit that you're referring to is superior to most "roll you own" PC's in my experience.

The Dell / HP kit in particular, tends to be very silent in operation. I think this largely stems from good thermal design, which is probably why it costs more to buy branded PC's - but I think it's a better option in the longer term.

At my place of work, we looked in to "rolling our own" vs buying into branded kit - and the branded kit won every time.

The same applies to servers - yes the servers can (and do) get noisy under adverse conditions (high temperatures) but running in our server room at a steady air conditioned 20 deg. C they are (in relative terms) quiet, unlike some of the non branded servers you can buy. (Unless it's a Sun of course - but that's another story)

Tony.

 

[Anonymous]

Hughes123:Tony_R:
Wow I must be slow today - there were no less than 5 other posts whilst I was writing mine.

This is the Sony player I was referring to.

Tony.

Okay, I'm going to see if I can demo one of those (my local Sony shop will have one hopefully!)

PjPro, my soundcard is a Creative X-Fi Fatal1ty Pro.

I would point you to the Sony RDR970 which has a 250g HD, plus upscales TV to 1080p, it has been given 5 stars by the What Hi-Fi team.
Can be had for £300ish.

Will never buy a CD player again.